Noam Chomsky is misguided on the Israel-Palestine dispute
Omri Preiss takes a look at what Noam Chomsky has been saying about the Israel-Palestine dispute.
By Omri Preiss on Wednesday, January 14th, 2009 - 1,650 words.
As I said in my previous article I would like to discuss Chomsky’s presentation of the Gaza issue systematically, and reveal exactly the profound misunderstanding it promotes. Chomsky says:
“Israel has sought to crush any resistance to its programs of takeover of the parts of Palestine it regards as valuable, while eliminating any hope for the indigenous population to have a decent existence enjoying national rights.”
In the dark times of the Begin-Sharon-Shamir era, this may have rang true, to a certain extent. Even then Israel still approached the Arab world with a title of “Let’s talk peace”. Even if this was made meaningless by Israel’s actions on the ground – it was still a title, and one which was much better than the one held by the PLO. Ignored facts about Israel’s tragic occupation of the West Bank and Gaza:
1) During the peace talks with Egypt, Begin offered autonomy to the Palestinians in the territories, and offered to give Gaza back to Egypt. Sadat refused both, and there was no non-terrorist Palestinian leadership to follow up the offer.
2) In the Madrid conference of 1991, Israel made an attempt at speaking to non-PLO Palestinian leadership.
3) In 1993, following a letter from Arafat recognizing Israel, Rabin initiated the Oslo process, with the aim of resolving the conflict peacefully. Autonomy was given to the PA, and it experienced vast economic growth.
4) Settlements continued to expand, not because of some “program”, but because of very high political and economic pressures within Israel, a coalition democracy, because of certain security perceptions in Israel, and because no real obligations were stipulated in the Oslo agreement in that regard.
Relating to Gaza:
1) In 2000 Barak agreed in full to the Clinton Parameters of a Palestinian state, on 98 percent of the West Bank and Gaza land swap, and Jerusalem as a shared capital.
2) In 2005 Sharon pulled out unilaterally from the Gaza Strip. In 2006 Ehud Olmert ran, and was elected on the platform of unilaterally pulling out of the West Bank up to the Security Barrier/Wall. It lost momentum because of Hamas and Hizballah provocations.
3) When Hamas was elected in 2006, it was requested, and pressured to recognize Israel’s right to exist (NOT “the occupation”), and prior agreements – in effect to recognize its own government and the PA- so that peace talks could continue. It refused, and continued to engage in attacks on Israeli civilians.
4) A “siege” was declared on Gaza only after Hamas threw out Fatah by force, in a civil war. Gaza was then run by an elected government which was committed to Israel’s destruction and actively waging war by rockets, and attacks on IDF soldiers. This siege, apart from being a pressure on Hamas to comply and stop shooting (using sanctions is not an unprecedented device in such a case), was mainly aimed at preventing Hamas from bringing in weapons en mass to the Strip (as Arafat attempted to do with the Karin A in 2002). Just imagine what an all out war with a fully armed Hamas standing army would look like. It would cost innumerably more lives to Palestinians and Israelis alike. Still, Hamas managed to smuggle in rockets that reach further and further into Israel. One could easily argue that if Hamas was elected (it is not “democratic” we shall touch on that), and it declares and wages war on Israel, why is Israel under any obligation to supply it with anything at all? Surely, as an elected government it is responsible for the welfare of its people, and must act accordingly. If it wants to wage war on Israel, it should find other means of assuring that welfare – and if it fails it must, like any government, face the consequences.
5) Israel offered a six month truce, and held indirect negotiations with Hamas through Turkey and Egypt, all the while still negotiating with Abbas and Syria. Hamas kept shooting and smuggling weapons (which it does not deny) throughout the truce, so Israel only partially removed the siege. Israel offered to extend the truce when it was over.
If, as Chomsky and others suggest, there is a joint American-Zionist “programs of takeover”, why has Israel gone through so much pretend effort? Why pull out of Gaza in the first place? Why even initiate the Oslo talks, or the 2000 talks? There was no significant international pressure to do so, and even if there was, what of it? Israel is known to be able to sustain such pressure, especially with the US on its side. Why not just throw out the Palestinians all together? Chomsky’s world view cannot answer these questions in any satisfactory way. In fact, he does not attempt to, he pretends they do not exist, and when raised, he simply denies the facts that support them.
Chomsky also says, in describing Hamas’ war on Israel: “…there are reactions there (-Gaza) to Israeli crimes, which continue daily.” As is typical for the anti-Israel camp, words like “crimes”, “massacres” “genocide” are tossed around with little attempt to define them. They are more for dramatic effect than for anything else. What are these “crimes” Chomsky refers to? Is it the occupation? There are negotiations to end it, as the Israeli leadership has been declaring night and day it wants to. The Siege? There have been negotiations to end it, and we have seen it has its reasons. IDF attacks on rocket launchers? These are legitimate defensive strikes on legitimate targets.
The quote is also an expression of the most deep-rooted misconception of the conflict, fashioned by some, in Israel and outside it, who seek a two-state solution, and seek to present Israel as the obstacle to it. This misconception is that, somehow, the Palestinian terrorist-“militant” organizations are interested only in the end of the ’67 occupation. This again ignores reality, history, and the very definition of “the Palestinian Cause”. Here are those missing facts in brief:
1) The Palestinian political leadership since the 1920s and up to 1948 was committed to the removal of the Jews from Palestine, and began to weave European anti-Sematism and lies into their views. The Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the founder of Palestinian nationalism, president of the “Arab Higher Committee” is quoted as saying:
“The suppression of the Jewish national homeland is part of my battle…They wish to build a central state which will become the base for their activities and destructive purposes. They wish to abolish other states, all the nations of the world. One thing is certain, the Jews will not undertake constructive work in Palestine. Their propaganda is full of lies. Everything that has been built in Palestine since prehistorical times is the work of Arabs and not of Jews. Their nature does not allow them to be builders and I’ve decided to find at all costs a precise and final solution to the Jewish problem. I shall first call on all the states of Europe, and then on those outside of Europe, to work together to put a definitive end to world Judaism, which represents a dangerous threat for the entire world”.
Cited also, Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine vol.2 p.p.465-466. Here we already see the seeds for the lies and conspiracies that would be attributed to the Zionist movement later.
2) The official policy of the Arab League countries to Israel can be summarized by this quote from the Secretary General in 1948, Azzam Pasha “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades. ” This position was reiterated by the Arab world after ’67 in the “No negotiations, no recognition, no peace” policy lead by Nasser. This has not changed except in the cases of Egypt and Jordan. This will only change when Israel and a Palestinian leadership will negotiate peace as is stated in the Saudi Peace Initiative.
3) Arafat, when he signed the Oslo Accords, did so, we are now safe to say, not to establish peace, but to continue his “liberation” war on Israel from within. Abdel Bari Atwan quotes him as saying “By Allah, I will turn this agreement (Oslo) into a curse for them (the Israelis). By Allah, perhaps not in my lifetime, but you will see the Israelis flee from Palestine”. Arafat made such claims openly in Arab media, though this is largely ignored. He also took action such as founding the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and bringing in the Karin A weapons ship. It will be noted that contrary to the prevalent notion that “the PLO recognizes Israel” – the majority of the factions of the PLO, and many factions within Fatah itself, like the Al Aqsa Martyrs, or the Tanzim, do not recognize Israel
4) Hamas and Islamic Jihad aim to see Israel “obliterated” by Islam . It makes no secret about this – it promises Israel’s destruction , and it makes no secret of it. At most, it is willing to give a ten year truce in return for a Palestinian state in the ’67 borders . On ideological grounds, it has no interest in peace with Israel, only peace without Israel.
Why is it that Chomsky and co never tells us any of this? Why is it, when we see a clear and consistent ideological line in Palestinian and Arab leadership that begins in the 1920s and lasts to this very day, that the terrorism that these groups engages in attributed to the ’67 occupation? This is especially strange since these organizations never do, and never have attributed their activities to that, and extreme terrorism (shooting up synagogues ect.) was very prevalent in Israel in the 1950s. Instead Chomsky tells us that president Abbas and his police forces, the only Palestinian leadership ready to negotiate peace are “of US-trained collaborators.” Again this is a clear distortion of reality that is made to promote a political agenda. What end Chomsky aims for, I cannot say.
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Omri Preiss
I am an Israeli, now studying in the Netherlands, having also lived for a time in Switzerland. I am outraged and appalled by the coverage and the international response to the situation in Israel/Palestine.
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This article is probably the worst I have ever read on the Israel/Palestine conflict. It is not worth going through each of his points here. They are all false and/or half-truths. On each point, Chomsky and many others have gone to great lengths refuting these typically self-serving zionist claims about the conflict. Chomsky shows more wisdom and knowledge in one paragraph than this guy does with his long-winded trains of falsehoods/half-truths.
I agree with the previous comment. This article has no content except to illustrate quite well many of the false claims that are often made regarding the conflict.
And John S. I agree with you as well. It's just a list of Israeli propaganda. Chomsky elicits such hysteria because he is rational about the situation and people can't just dismiss him because he has such intellectual clout. When somehow stares a situation in the face and evaluates rationally and you can't just ignore or ad hominem attack him, it's hard to know what to do. I put a comment on Omri's previous article outlining some of his mistakes. This is more of the same I'm afraid.
"They are all false and/or half-truths. " Can you please be more specific? What exactly does he say that is historically incorrect? I am just curious to know. Thanks.
why dont you reaserch and find these answers on your own. that is the problem with all of us here in our comfy states. we only take the words of someone else instead of diving into the reaserch in detail on our own. find objective articles and decide where u stand. though if you do not take the side of chomsky i am sorry for your loss.
Ok, this is in response to Joe S asking me for some specifics.
Falsehood: The claim that Begin offered the Occupied Territories to the Palestinians and that Sadat said no is simply false. No Israeli official has ever offered the Palestinians a viable national sovereign state Begin was one of the Israeli PMs who was a terrorist: he was leader of the Stern Gang which took part in the infamous massacre of Palestinians in Deir Yassin in 1948. It's true that Begin had feelings of guilt late in his life, but it's just fantasy that he offered national autonomy to the Palestinians – and even more fantastic that Sadat would have said no if faced with this offer.
Half-truth: Yes, Sharon evacuated the settlers from Gaza BUT: that's 2 percent of all settlers; Israel added more settlers to the West Bank than they took away from Gaza; Israel retained control of borders, the sea, airspace, blocked food, medicines and imports, and hence retained control of the economy; Israel has been starving the population, denying freedom of movement in and out of Gaza, and now, as we know, has been murdering a nation with this genocidal war.
Half-truth: Olmert campaigned on withdrawing to the 'security barrier/wall'. Yes, he said he'd do that, but that 'security wall' – what Chomsky rightly calls an 'annexation wall' and many others call an 'apartheid wall' – is illegal, is built on Palestinian land, so in effect, what Olmert is saying is, the Palestinians can have the parts of the West Bank that we don't occupy and don't find valuable. Israel has the most valuable land and uses most of the water, and it has also annexed the Jordan valley; on top of that, the areas left to Palestinians have been divided, apartheid-style, by bypass roads and checkpoints that make it impossible for Palestinians to freely move around and be connected to each other: they are also separated in these ways from East Jerusalem, traditionally the economic and cultural centre of Palestinian life…
I could go through every point but that would take up too much space. Need I go on? If I had to recommend 3 books by people who really know what they're talking about, I would recommend: 1) Ilan Pappe, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, 2) Norman Finkelstein, Beyond Chutzpah, and 3) Joel Kovel, Overcoming Zionism. In addition, anything by Chomsky – he has written so much on it.
Slight correction: Begin led the Irgun terror gang, Yitzhak Shamir led the Stern terror gang. Both participated in the Deir Yassin massacre.
You, my friend, are a lunatic if you accept those three authors as being even remotely objective.
* The illusion of objectivity is one of the reasons people are misinformed…denied fundamental truths.
Never believe objectivity exists. Everyone has an opinion, however formed.
Advice? Read it all, breathe it all. No matter how sick you will feel. Somewhere in the middle, in the indescribable sludge of grey, will be what really happened.
* If someone keeps insisting they are being fair, they are being shits.
* Don't eat the yellow snow or stand upwind of a fart.
Try reading them and then give an actual argument about where they've gone wrong.
you are too kind lol.
my statement down below was acutally for you my mistake thanks!
Chandra, your not answering the question.
What's false in what he said? First of all, he didn't say that Begin offered to give the territories back, he just said that he proposed autonomy to the Palestinians. Of course, that was not enough to reach a peace argument, and it's not a good argument in favor of Israel, I don't see why Omri wrote about that. However, saying that ethnic cleansing was inbuilt in Zionism as Finkelstein said, is a caricature. It is true that the Zionists thought about this possibility because they wanted to have a Jewish majority all over Palestine, but ultimately they have accepted the 1947 partition plan (they have accepted the idea of a territorial compromise). What was envisioned is irrelevant, what happens on the ground is what really counts. Now maybe the Palestinians have been expelled, but don't forget that the Arabs tried t o destroy Israel (maybe that was moral from their perspective since they felt dispossessed by Zionism, but they did expell the Jews who lived in East -Jerusalem and they massacred those who lived in the Gush Etsion (a block of Jewish villages in the West Bank). This massacre was actually worse than Deir Yassine, more people died there but no one talks about it. This was was actually a territorial war. Both the Jews and the Arabs fought for the control of the land. If the Arabs had won, would you talk about colonialism or ethnic cleansing? I don't think so.
Nonetheless, Israel has committed a terrible crime but it is false to say that without the eviction of the Palestinians, the creation of the state of Israel would've been impossible. Israel already existed when the Palestinians were expelled.
I could also talk about the 14 million Germans who have been expelled from Eastern Europe after WW2 (this happened not during but after the war. It is worse than what the Israelis did since they expelled the Palestinians during the war, when Israelis also were massacred).
Also, when Sharon created Kadima, he had the intention to withdraw from 90% of the West Bank. That was certainly not enough, but the gap between right-wingers in Israel and the international consensus (1967 border) became quite narrow. Moreover, Olmert proposed to give not 90% of the West Bank to the Palestinians, but rather 99% if you take into account the land swap, plus a safe passage between the West Bank and the Gaza strip which the Palestinians did not have before 1967 that would compensate for the 1% left. I don't blame you for not being aware of it, no one talks about it in the medias. People talk however about Hamas offer to accept a 2 state solution. The problem is that they don't accept to recognize Israel. Now maybe it's not a big deal if they implicitly accept the existence of Israel, but no one in this terrorist group (excuse me, resistance group) accepts to distance himself from the articles of their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel (unlike Arafat who said in 1989 on the french public television that these same articles in the PLO charter were ''caduque'' which can be translated in English as outdated). I would also add that you don't have a consensus within the Hamas. Haniyeh for example keeps talking about a truce only in exchange of a complete Israeli pullout, not a 2 state solution as a permanent settlement to the conflict.
Now for the roadblocks, the settlements and so on, I agree with you, it was built inside the Palestinian territory. But don't forget that there was a right-wing government in Israel when it was built (thanks to the suicide attacks which gave the Likud a victory on a silver plate), and even if it was built inside the Palestinian territory, 90% of this ''wall'' is an electrified fence that can be removed anytime.
For the settlements, once again, it was brought out of proportion. Even if left-wing governments colonized more than the Likud, they focused settlement activities within the settlements blocks only (near the Israeli border) which represent less than 10% of the West Bank. It doesn't hinder the possibility to establish a viable Palestinian state. When the Likud is in power however, it builds and grows settlements all over the West Bank, this is a major difference with the Labour party or Kadima. By the way, the Clinton parameters (endorsed by the Labout and Kadima call for a land swap, which means that the Palestinians would be compensated for the annexations)
Let me finish by telling you that you have a consistent majority of Israelis who accept the Clinton parameters set in December 2000. The problem is that they fear that the coastal plain where 90% of the Israeli population lives might pass under Hamas fire range once Israel will have withdrawn from the West Bank (look to what happened to Northern Israel and Western Negev after unilateral pullouts . I agree however, that It is time to put pressure on Israel, but at the same time we need to give the Israelis the guarantee that once liberated, the West Bank will not become a sanctuary for Palestinian terrorists.
And I would have to agree with Chandra, Matt and John.
President Clinton is famously quoted as saying his daughter told him "Dad, denial isn't just a river in Egypt". How appropriate about how the pro-Israel lobby has unquestioningly endorsed Israel's butchery in Gaza these last three weeks. Most of the West is unconditionally pro-Israel, or at least was until the IDF saw fit to flatten Gaza and slaughter hundreds of innocent women and children in the process. After the UN sought to censure Israel, in juvenile pique they blew up the United Nations Relief Headquarters and school. What will it take for Jews to wake up to the barbarism of the current government they have in Israel. One bold Jewish UK member of parliament has woken from his slumber http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2009/01/… when will someone in the US Congress wake up. The US is sponsoring ethnic cleansing by Israel on Palestinians, and we should know better.
agreed!!!
Look. Just because the issue of the settlements wasn't touched on by Israel doesn't mean they should be built . Moreover, the fact that the Knesset can't seem to have a coalition without including wackjobs like Lieberman just shows how corrupt and crippled a Parliamentary democracy Israel is. Even Israelis don't think their democracy works.
Also, on the Gaza pullout and the unilateral disengagement plan, not only have more and more settlements been built since Sharon slipped into a coma but also the Gaza pullout was designed to make sure that Israel didn't seem to be repeating the Apartheid regime's mistake of "minority rule" in the strip.
And for every insane thing a Palestinian says about Islam crushing Israel there's a corollary Israeli statement about regaining the biblical borders by throwing their Arab (not Palestinian because such a nation doesn't exist in radical Israeli eyes) rivals into the sea. So that argument is essentially meaningless.
And let me tell you something as an American who's happy to be an American, even proud as I am sure you are of being Israeli. Both our countries are essentially colonies, though Israeli much newer of course. But we've both committed the same crime of signing unequal, easily broken-by-indiscriminate-inhumane-force treaties with the native populations we (and by we I mean my Mayflower-passenger) ancestors) found upon our arrival. Now, in the United States, Native Americans and their culture are confined to huge slums called "reservations" where poverty, alcoholism, obesity, and suicide reign over people guilty only of being related to people who found themselves at the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. the inhabitants of the Americas post-1492). In my personal opinion, Native Americans are the most fucked-over minority group in my country.
contd in next comment:
The same thing is happening with Palestinians. And it's Israel's fault, just as the deprivations of Native Americans in the U.S. are the fault of my country. The only difference is that Israel still has a chance to do something about it.
As for Gaza, the Strip is nothing short of a prison. There are no jobs, no money. What does the astronomical rate of unemployment have anything to do with anything? Well, if you didn't have a job and and an F-16 had just killed your brother/mother/grandmother/father/sister/son/daughter/aunt/uncle then I think you would find it hard to resist the temptation to fight.
And, more than that, I'm really really sick of hearing all this bullshit about "firing rockets deeper into Israel" because it's nothing short of straight bullshit. The last war in Gaza took the following toll: 13 Israelis and 1300+ Gazans (considering all the injured who have probably perished since). That's basically a 1 to 100 ratio. That is literally a Warsaw-ghetto-uprising ratio. Forgive me if you find that offensive, but I find the murder of innocent children offensive.
Despite all these tragedies, there's still hope. And the ball remains in Israel's court. The first thing Israel can do, before it removes any West Bank settlements or negotiates a final agreement on East Jerusalem or even cedes a part of Golan, is give the Palestinians back their water. Israel uses 80 percent of the water beneath the West Bank, water which is by international law Palestinian. Even though Israel occupies the West Bank, the Geneva conventions say that water can only be withdrawn for the occupying military, not the residents of Tel Aviv or Haifa or Ariel or Ma'ale Adumim.
Why should Israel follow (for once) the dictates of International Law? Well, no reason but its own security. The Israeli economy is a post-industrial one and only 2 percent of its GDP comes from agricultural production. By stark fucking contrast, 50 percent of West Bank's residents rely either directly or indirectly on agriculture. By giving back to the Palestinians their rights to their water, the Palestinian economy would expand, people would become employed, their children educated, and in time decide to do something besides hating (to say nothing of fighting) Israel.
Bottom line: give Palestinians back their water rights. Right. Fucking. Now.
Douglas Quaid
Ramallah, Palestine
April 25, 2009
Dear Douglas,
Just a few of your misdirected comments and analogies
"Even Israelis don't think their democracy works"
– I would think most Israelis think democracy is inefficient but better that being ruled by a jewish King or despot.
"And for every insane thing a Palestinian says about Islam crushing Israel there's a corollary Israeli statement about regaining the biblical borders by throwing their Arab (not Palestinian because such a nation doesn't exist in radical Israeli eyes) rivals into the sea. So that argument is essentially meaningless."
– It matters who's saying it and what positions they hold. You can't really compare the anti-semetic, bellicose remarks of the current Hamas government to that of Israel's government, even with Leiberman. So the argument is not meaningless as you try arguing. You are simply trying to persuade us somehow that the antisemetic and Islamic rants of the Hamas government is somehow equal to Israeli government statements.
"Both our countries are essentially colonies, though Israeli much newer of course."
– How is this so? There were Jews in the Ottoman ruled territory before a single european zionist arrived, Jerusalem, tzfat, hebron are just a few places that had large jewish communities for centuries. The Jews that arrived from europe were fleeing persecution and purchase their land, they did not steal it. The arab jews that came from just across the border were treated as second class citizens. There was a large influx of arab workers that came to the region as well from surrounding countries. Your false analogy shows your lack of knowledge in the history of the region.
"The only difference is that Israel still has a chance to do something about it. "
– I find it odd you don't work on a reservation helping undo the wrongs of your ancestors, not as sexy?.
"As for Gaza, the Strip is nothing short of a prison. There are no jobs, no money."
– Hamas has full control of gaza. They choose to spend most of their money on weaponry as shown by rockets being flung at Israel's civilian population. Israel does not control all of the borders with gaza. Do you advocate a solution to gaza? Will the rockets end if Israel opens up the borders?
That is literally a Warsaw-ghetto-uprising ratio. Forgive me if you find that offensive, but I find the murder of innocent children offensive.
– I don't remember the jews in the warsaw ghetto puchasing weapons to kill all germans. Your analogy is wrong and cruel, and your excuse for using it is pathetic and a clear ad homenim attack. I don't see Hamas taking worry if some of their victims are children. This lack of care for civilian life can be observed in any of their terror attacks just a few years ago in Israel before the security fence was built. The americans have killed women in children in afghanistan and Iraq, are you comparing them to the nazis as well because you find the murder of innocent children offensive.
I agree with you on the water issue. It would have been enough to state this issue without going through a diatribe of lies and false analogies.
you my friend are a complete goof. i could not even make it through your entire post. first i am simply offended every time the words "anti-semetic" are used. and secondly it is clearly stated in islam that the jews predicted the coming of a arab profit and welcomed it when it happened. and therefore all muslims should hold there jewish and christain counterparts as brothers under one god. any rederic shouted by hamas is strictly out of desperity and the continuous persecution of thier people. i do not support hamas i do not even think they are good for palestine. but the people of that country VOTED them in so let them lead. there has not been hamas pre emted strikes on israel, though the insane zionist nation would have us all believe there were. semite is a discusting term that should be abolished
Yes Douglas.. it's all because of Israel, everything… the Palestinians are perfect. they are innocent little lambs who have been derprived by the forces of darkness.
yiu have no idea about the rockets, what they do or why so few have died (it's bomb shelters you idiot – if people didn't run in and out all day dozens would be dead).
I'm sick of Palestinians blaming the results of their own political extremism, ignorance and incompetence on Israel. What an easy life you make for yourself – and yet you keep walking further and further away from a solution to your problems, which you make a living complaining about (it's fine to complain, just do something constructive, instead of blaming Israel for everything.)
As far as the water is concerned, yes you have a point.
I had to break my response up into multiple comments because it was too long. Thanks, Mr. Friendly, for giving me the chance to expand on my previous statements, clarify some points, and make you look like an asshole.
Let me just start off by saying that the way Hamas spends money has little relevance to the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that the average Palestinian income of 6,000 dollars (if they're lucky) and the average Israeli income of 30ish thousand dollars might have a little something to do with the resentment of Israel Palestinians in the West Bank have.
Israeli Democracy:
Kadima won the last election. Right now, Likud rules because the Knesset has a too purely parliamentarian system. I've spoken to Israelis who think this, who think their voice was ignored in favor of the most radical elements in Israeli politics.
Insane statements are comparable on both sides:
Here's one, from Moshe Dayan Israel's Chief of Staff, Minister of Defense, Agriculture, and Foreign Affairs said advising his government on what his government should tell the Palestinians
"You will continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave."
Another from my Israeli friend, an average Israeli citizen who sympathizes with Lieberman:
"I'm very conservative. I think we should kick them all into the sea….I think we should flatten Gaza."
Compare this to a Palestinian cab driver I was talking to the other day. He spent 15 years of his life in an Israeli prison, picked up in the first Intifada. I lamented the lack of human rights for Palestinians and said that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve them. He agreed emphatically. I was absolutely shocked that he'd be so even handed after the Israelis had stolens so much of his life from him. shocked.
You can put your head in the sand about the bloodthirstiness of people on BOTH sides here all you want, it doesn't make the reality less real.
Both countries being colonies:
You show your outright denial of history in this paragraph. "The Jews that arrived from Europe were fleeing persecution and purchased their land, they did not steal it." What. The. Fuck. A) They Purchased it from the Ottomans, not the Palestinians when they bothered too. B) Tell that to the British soldiers the Zionists fighting for independence killed. I think they'd disagree with you too. But, alas, they're dead. C) Tell that to the Palestinian cabbie I spoke with the other day who says the Zionists killed 300 people in his grandfather's village in 1948. D) Tell that to Ilan Pappe, the Israeli author of "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" who had access to Israeli documents that prove not only the murder but also the outright rape of Palestinians in the process of "purchasing'
the land here. D) You're full of shit. Israel is a colonial enterprise. On the other hand, I'm not someone who thinks Israel doesn't have a right to exist, because it definitely does. It just doesn't have a right violate human rights.
The only difference. American v Zionist colonialism. v. Zionist colonialism
At least I admit to the horrors my ancestors personally wrought upon the native peoples of my home continent. You seem to prefer to deny them. Moreover, there's nothing sexy (except perhaps, your mom) about this situation at all. And, moreover, maybe I'm not working in a reservation in the U.S. because I'm busy with another one abroad, but this one's called "Area A."
Also, doing community service on an Indian reservation might be noble work but the situation is completely motherfucking stuffed. Here, there really is a chance to relieve the Palestinian plight. You know why? Because 90 percent of the Native Americans who were living in what is now the United States are dead and have been for more than a century from either wholesale slaughter or disease. There's really no going back once the people in question have been eradicated.
Also, another little tidbit on the purchasing of land from natives: Thomas Jefferson bought a giant swath of land that now contains the plains states ("The Louisiana Purchase") from Napoleon Bonaparte himself. Did his purchase of that land make the Trail of Tears (Andrew Jackson's forced removal of Cherokee Indians from Georgia and Mississippi to present day Oklahoma, essentially a death march) or the 7th Cavalry's murder of women and children and old men at Wounded Knee any less heinous? No, it didn't.
a) what the hell do british soliders have to do with it? they were their as part of their empire building – they killed jews and arabs, and were killed by jews an arabs. b) yes they bought some lands off ottomans'. they bought alot of land from local palestinian landlords. c) wow, a cab driver told you this about what his grandpa supposedly exprienced? how historically valid… sounds like yet another rumour to me. d) Ilan Pappe's history is academically equvalent to holocaust denial. His book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" is most useful as toilet paper. He was sued for distorting the testimonies of people he interviewed, and libel. Apart from outright academic crime, he completely omits Palestinian attacks on Jews through the war, which amounts to a lie within itself, as he completely eliminates the context of the events he "describes". It would even be bad toilet paper…
I don't see what parallel you're trying to draw between America and Palestine. Don't project your personal Native-American guilt trip onto the Palestinian issue. That is not constructive at all
Look, I don't have a reason to lie or distort facts here. You, frankly, as an Israeli, totally do. Thus, your discounting of a Palestinian's account of his family's history as a "rumor" I can call highly questionable and subject to personal bias. Also, even if every word of Pappe's book is a lie I hardly think it's the equivalent of "holocaust denial" (if anything, it's the other way around), but that's just me, maybe. Then again, I'm not engaged in intra-Israeli politics so maybe, like all the other foreigners who try to comment on the clusterfuck here, I "don't understand."
Also, as for Ilan Pappe calling a man whose family escaped from the Nazis the equivalent of a holocaust denier is just a huge asshole thing to do. Did you ever escape Nazi persecution? Serious question.
As for the bomb shelters, which the Gazans don’t have, I can assure you that if Hamas had F-16s instead of Qassam bottle rockets, far more than “dozens” of Israelis would die. Because that’s what F-16s do. F-16s are powerful, terrifying instruments of death made with pride in the U.S. of A. Oh, yeah, and you’re welcome.
As for the issue of guilt and Native Americans, I don’t wake up every morning hoping that we cede Chicago back to the Blackhawks, as that’s impractical. Why? Well, as I said, they’re all dead. As for the Palestinians, they’re not all dead yet. You, on the other hand, should feel at least a modicum of guilt for the actions of your country. If you don’t you may want to visit a psychiatrist immediately, as you might be a sociopath. Don’t worry. There are pills for these problems.
And like don’t give me this bullshit that British soldiers have nothing to do with it. The Irgun and the Haganah practiced terrorist tactics to get the country Israelis have now. To use Wikipedia, which I think has been established by Mr. News as an unbiased source of information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bom…
For good measure, furthermore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Pappé
Even though I’ve already won by virtue of declaring victory here, I just thought drive home these important points. Not that law, international or otherwise, seems to apply here, all I’ll say is that I rest my case.
Bottom line: You got what you wanted, give those people air.
Sincerely,
Douglas Quaid
Look, I don't have a reason to lie or distort facts here. You, frankly, as an Israeli, totally do. Thus, your discounting of a Palestinian's account of his family's history as a "rumor" I can call highly questionable and subject to personal bias. Also, even if every word of Pappe's book is a lie I hardly think it's the equivalent of "holocaust denial" (if anything, it's the other way around), but that's just me, maybe. Then again, I'm not engaged in intra-Israeli politics so maybe, like all the other foreigners who try to comment on the clusterfuck here, I "don't understand."
Also, as far as the Native Americans are concerned, I never personally killed any of them or paid for their extermination. I don't wake up in the morning hoping that one day we'll give the Blackhawks back Chicago. I think you're the one projecting the guilt trip. Moreover, if you don't feel any guilt, then you should really go to a psychiatrist immediately, as you may be a sociopath. There are pills for this problem.
At any rate, I've already declared victory here. Thus, further comment from me is unnecessary.
Look, you got what you what you wanted, give those people air.
Sincerely,
Douglas Quaid
Warsaw Ghetto-uprising:
You know what I call an "ad hominem" (at a man) attack? A bullet fired at a man. Rimshot. Grow up. If the author can contradict the idea that the Israeli government thinks that 100 Palestinians are worth a single Israeli, then I'd like to hear his response.
Also, as for who would've like to "kill all xxx" it doesn't matter if the Jews in Warsaw didn't want to kill all Germans, the Germans wanted to kill all the inhabitants of a ghetto. In this case Gaza is the ghetto. You're conflating history to insinuate that I've got some sort of beef against Jews. Not true. I won't bother talking about the seven bar-mitzvahs I went to as a kid, the Jewish girlfriend, the life-long Jewish friends, because they're all cliche ways of defending against pathetic attempts at calling someone a racist. The beef I have is when people in power brutally abuse that power, as Israel is in Gaza.
Look, I don't deny that Hamas fighters would be happy to kill Israeli children, but the idea that they are even half as capable of doing so as Israeli soldiers are is just flat wrong. So why the disproportionate response. Maybe it's the sick logic of "deterrence" the same logic that bulldozes houses wholesale in refugee camps as punishment for the killing of Israeli soldiers. And if you're suggesting that the success of suicide bombings in the second intifada was due only to Israel holding off on the "security fence" then that's a pretty odd definition of restraint.
And "security fence?" Have you ever seen this thing or been through one of its checkpoints? Well I have, on Friday, actually. That is not a fence. That is another Israeli land and groundwater grab that cuts deep into the Green Line. (cont'd below)
Yes, my tax dollars have gone toward wasting women and children in Afghanistan and Iraq. Obviously, as any Israeli would, I'd say that our intent wasn't to kill innocents. Those tax dollars I should add were also used to kill Palestinians. However, if I might be so bold, I would say that American soldiers aren't as callous about the lives of Afghans or Iraqis as Israelis are of Palestinian lives. I'll note the infamous "One Shot, Two Kills" t-shirt of a pregnant Palestinian woman in a pair of crosshairs handed out to Israeli soldiers at the end of tours of duty or training exercises. Don't believe me? It was reported first in Ha'aretz but here's a link to the Murdoch owned Sky News report on this horrifying piece of clothing:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israe…
So, like Forrest Gump: That's all I have to say about that.
If you want to get a better grasp of history, why don't you put down the Daniel Pipes.
Wow – that's funny you think American soldiers take better care of the lives of civilians than Israeli soldiers? I guess that is why 9,000 Iraqi civilians died in the invasion of Iraq 2003 (as well as 7,000 soldiers), why 6,000 civilians died in the invasion of Afghanistan.
In the most similar operation to Gaza, the Second Battle of Falluja 6,000 civilians died (and 1,500 militants), compared to 400 civilians and 700+ militants that were killed in Gaza. Needless to say that Gaza is a much much more difficult environment…
I guess that's all because American soldiers are such nice guys and Israeli soldiers are dickheads.
The numbers speak for themselves my friend
See the response below. Weren't we talking about Israel? Or does revising history work just as well for the last 48 hours as it does for history since 1948?
Asshole? You are as classless as they come with your ad homenim attacks.Cursing, making personal attacks and attributing to me remarks i didn't make doesn't make anymore of your lies true.
1) There has always been a jewish presence in the area. In Jerusalem., tzfat, hebron and other cities.
Don't forget when people say palestine they include Jordan in that distinction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Demographi…
I don't have time to debate your fallacies and they are numerous. Your analogies, including the one of income disparity, is ridiculous. Compare the arabs in the west banks to countries surrounding israel that have a similar culture like egypt, jordan or syria. Also in regards to your saying that
" I would say that American soldiers aren't as callous about the lives of Afghans or Iraqis as Israelis"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_a…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
Americans raping Iraqis is somehow excusable?
My point was that your arguments doesn't bring neither the palestinians nor the Israelis towards a better future. If you really cared about the future of the two nations you would work with palestinian peace groups and Israeli peace groups, not make equivocal arguments that, if they mean anything, they are used to somehow insinuate that a government of the type of Hamas is somehow better than that of Israel.
Before I begin, let me just say that the income disparity between the Palestinian Territories and Israel is a different animal than the disparity between Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Why? Because it's not Israel's fault in the way it is in the PT. For instance, in it the case of two of those countries (Egypt and Jordan) Israel has normalized diplomatic relations and it only occupies a sliver of Syria. For a variety of reasons, from the Wall to the groundwater, Israel is directly responsible for Palestinian poverty. It has little to do with Palestinian or similar Arab states' "culture," you weird Weberist atavistatista, that makes people poor here.
Mr. News,
Sorry you don't like cursing. Get with the times. Personally, I aspire to and support classlessness in all things, my language as well as society. Rim. Mother. Fucking. Shot.
Also, you failed to respond to any of what I wrote about American history. Why? Maybe because you don't know anything about it.
Oh yeah, Abu Ghraib, Haditha, raping and murdering and blasting children to bits, My Lai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, chattel slavery of Africans and Chinese, Antietam (though I guess that doesn't count) country's killed millions and millions of people since its portentous inception. (Just an aside: I thought we were talking about Israel here, or have you abandoned that subject because you realize you've been beaten? I think that must be it) I don't deny any of this. But what does it have to do with the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land?
Not that it really matters (since we're all Children of God and Global Citizens and so forth) but what country do you come from Mr. News? What bloody history does it have? Oh, you haven't mentioned that, as far as I can tell, so I guess you win the cowardice award for this article's comment thread.
(had to truncate this again)
And when did I ever say Hamas's "form of government" is superior to Israel's? This is a falsehood not even worth retorting to. But I guess some people just read what they want to read, no matter what's actually written.
But let's just establish once central fact about the subject at hand: despite the criminal nature of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the occupation, the American people and the American military, seem to desire, after just 6 years of fighting, to end this occupation. The Israelis, after 42 fucking years, seem to have no similar intent to disengage from the West Bank. Indeed, you don't see American families moving to Iraq or Afghanistan like Israelis do to settlements in the West Bank, where they arrive heavily armed and willing to take potshots at any Palestinian whom they think is giving them the stinkeye.
And quoting neocon fantasies of occupying every Middle Eastern country indefinitely won't work either. In terms of politics in America right now, you might as well be reciting Charles Manson's folk songs.
At any rate, this lovely flame war has degraded into a pointless discussion of America's many crimes. And that's a worthy issue indeed. However, insofar as it pertains not to the topic at hand, I must conclude that I (as America has been in all it's insane wars but 1 (.5ish maybe and maybe 2)) am victorious. USA! USA! USA!
And besides, Cohaagen says it's just a few extremists.
Mission Accomplished,
Douglas Quaid
You are completely unhinged.
You never asked, but i was born and raised in israel. Served in a combat unit, so i know about the injustices of the occupation. I also know that there are enemies such as Hamas and Hizbolla that seek to murder my family.
You seem not to pick up my point. I am for ending the occupation. I am for the Obama administration putting the pressure on the Israeli government to stop the settlements and begin to dismantle them. But, I also want a resolution to stop the rockets on my family in the south. The rockets that target my sister, and i don't give a rats ass if justify shooting rockets at people as long as the chances they hit someone are low. You are a moron and hypocrite if you do not concede that if a group bombed the US tirelessly with inefficient bombs that the US would Nuke them or blast the them into hell.
Finally, get a life, there are no winners here. You think it's a game. Service here in israel is mandatory. I was in the middle of finals when I received my call two years ago to pack up and go north into lebanon. If you don't get it, what i'm trying to tell you is that most soldiers have better things to do with there time than fight. This isn't a mercenary army like the US. So if peace is an option we'll take it, and while i'm sure there are palestinians that want a peaceful settlement, you don't get there by voting into power an islamic fundamentalist group that seeks to destroy the nation at it's side.
Oh, I totally admit to being unhinged. Maybe it's all the erasing of my memory Houser and Cohaagen and their legion of evil scientists did to me back on Mars. Long story. Just forget it. I wish I could.
I'm glad to hear we're both on the same page on the settlements and the occupation. But I don’t completely agree that the U.S. would respond with disproportionate force in the same way Israel does if, say, Cuba launched a few rockets into Florida and killed a few Americans. Mostly, we’d just be paralyzed and perplexed. Not because we couldn’t or, if tested further, wouldn’t respond with massive volleys missiles. But for two important reasons: it wouldn’t make any sense and it wouldn’t be in our interest. Also, there are too many Cuban American voters in Southern Florida to allow anything but a surgically precise regime change. There really is no equivalent nation next to us as you have with the Palestinians. I see where you’re coming from, but we’re not in the same position as Israel is.
The only equivalent historical analogy I can think of is The Civil War, which remains the bloodiest war America has ever fought, claiming around a half a million to a million American lives. The North (i.e. The U.S.) eventually, right before defeating the Confederacy once and for all, practiced a scorched-earth policy, burning down cities, tearing up railroad track, torching homes, and killing Southern civilians when they got a shot. Then soldiers from the North occupied the South for twelve years.
Personally and ethnically and ancestrally and morally, I’m on the North’s side, because I was raised that way and because I think it’s self-evident that slavery was a horrific wrong. I think we should have occupied the South a lot longer. The disengagement was more than a mistake, it was a crime that doomed African Americans to almost another full century of state-sanctioned oppression, poverty, denial of voting rights, and lynchings (for instance, if a black man looked at a white woman, very very bad things would happen to him). If we, the North that is, had stayed, maybe we’d have been able to do something about the culture that perpetuated that oppression. But maybe not. If you visit the States, I can guarantee you you can find someone who will still say their side was right, even though the Confederacy’s secessionist aspirations have been dead now 144 years.
(I had to post a whole new comment to continue this because the thing is messed up. Also because I really enjoy writing. Possibly too much. Like Proustly too much.)
The point I’m getting at here is that you all, Palestinians and Israelis are engaged in a civil war, not a war between two sovereign nations. Family feuds tend to me the most bitter and the hardest to resolve. Look at the U.S. and the Japanese. We subjected the Japanese to the most inhumane kind of weapon ever invented and today, even after military occupation and the continuing presence of American troops, we’re the best of friends. The reason is that we had so little in common to begin with.
As an outsider, I see amazing similarities in your culture, your language, and your religion. The biggest difference, as it was with the industrial North and agrarian South, is economic. If that issue can be resolved, then everyone will find themselves a lot safer. I won’t bother digressing further on this issue, but I think the ultimate solution is a single state, Theodore Herzl’s unrealized dream. Who knows? If he hadn’t died too soon, maybe we wouldn’t be having this entertaining flame war. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had a lot of fun and learned a lot.
And my interest in this region and its political problems is not simply academic. I’m from Washington D.C., I was born and raised there. I remember September 11th vividly and the unnerving securitization of the city that followed for years afterward. I don’t have any brothers or sisters, but I have very close family and friends (my parents and grandparents and uncles) living in D.C. and New York, the two cities most likely to suffer another terrorist attack on a 9-11, 7-11, or 3-11 scale.
The resolution of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is central to making sure my loved-ones are safe, just as it is for you. The unresolved conflict here draws recruits for radical causes across the world, from the streets of Riyahd to the villages of Peshawar. The reason I’m here researching water conflict and the impact of climate changes has as its inspiration a desire to keep the people dear to me from harm. That’s part of it, at least. But mainly I want to improve the lives of the people living here on both sides of The Green Line who abhor violence and who deserve a brighter future.
So we’re in the same boat in a lot of ways, Friendly. And I wish you and yours all the best. And, in the interest of both of us returning to our non-digital lives in peace, let’s declare a truce.
Sincerely,
Douglas Quaid
P.S.: Ours is a volunteer army, actually, not a mercenary one. A mercenary army is comprised of fighters who will war for any cause if the pay’s right. American soldiers volunteer to fight for their country if they think the cause itself is right (or if they have few other employment opportunities, that’s a cynical but true view, I think) The reason we don’t have a draft is not only because of the legacy of Vietnam and how politically unpopular one would be, but also because deep down, Americans don’t like leaving their country to die thousands of miles away from home. Many Libertarians in America would like to see us withdraw from Iraq on the basis of, among other things, George Washington’s Farewell Address in which he warned the new nation he helped birth against “foreign entanglements.” For Israelis, of course, your war is just a bus ride away. I don't envy you, but I do wish you the best of luck.
Douglas, I don't know if you'll take offence to this, but I just find you hilarious!!!! I don't think I have the time or the patience to refer to your claims seriously but… the US army is a mercenary army, it would be a volunteer army if the soldiers didn't get paid… (show me how many upper-middle class kids join the US army?)
And about Cuba… the US tried to invade Cuba just because they had a revolution, and then have blockaded it since… you dont think they would bomb them if Cuba launched 11,000 rockets at Florida, forcing the entire population to live in bomb shelters for months? wow you're crazy.
And then there the whole "civil war" argument… maybe Americans and Mexicans, because they are so similar in language and culture, should merge into one country? Canadians too actually – most people can't really distinguish a Canadian for an American – you people even have more or less the same accent – just get into one country – fuck it!
This is amazing how much propaganda Israelis employ to prove their lies being true. It seems that an average Israeli has never set a foot into West Bank and tried to see who is really living in insecurity and fear, how much pain and suffering a typical Palestinian family. I know that Israeli civilians are not allowed into West Bank, but those who want to see the facts on the ground find their ways. Another term that makes me laugh is what Israelis call "civilian". There is no civil population in Israel, it is all military population brainwashed that everyone wants to eradicate them from the surface of the globe. Well, with the actions that Israel does, it really does lead people to thinking that it would be much better without Israelis, even Jews. So far, they do not show real will to live with all peoples together.
I know I generalize now, and am sorry for those who see what is going on and who stand for humanity as such before the nationality or ethnicity. I have been working with quite some of Israeli-Palestinian organizations working for Peace WITH Justice. I am fond of the Israelis who dear to stand up and face the truth and fight for what their ancestors have suffered in the past – the justice.
We tend to forget that violent actions represent only 0,5% of Palestinian population, what about the rest, no need to care? And even from this 0,5% of reacting violently 99% have seen their families/friends/relatives killed, their homes demolished, humiliated on the checkpoints. The Israeli governance is creating the vicious circle, through its IDFs and settlers violence Israel creates more violence, people with no hope and future. Israel is not interested in having peace with justice.
I want to say one thing, that no matter how much some side try to prove the wrong to be right, the people have the innate sense of what is right.
And I am proud to work with awareness campaigns, making lectures and workshops about the conflict in the high-schools and universities. When I started I was shocked how little youngsters really knew, but now the tendencies are that they involve themselves more and hearing our personal experiences in Israel and Palestine and facts of what is happening makes them open their eyes too. Soon enough we shall start investigative tours in Israel and Palestine, just need to work out with these Israeli soldiers in the airports, because the senseless questioning and keeping "tourists" for hours on the borders is not very nice and Israel's "friendly" image is presented in first hours being on the ground. These guys and girls seem to have no clue what they are doing there, they should first go to a proper school and learn some more useful stuff than this brainwashing message "everyone wants to kill us, so we all need to be soldiers". Last time the teenager in uniform who was "questioning" us didn't know how to type and couldn't even answer why we were withhold, which we knew anyway. We were held in "questioning" because one from our group was black french with Arabic name. In fact he was withhold, we, the vanilla faces got the visas right away, because you see we were no "security threat" and he was.
Its the way to get this to work on my Samsung galaxy is to close all open apps by using app killer then going back to web site. Thanks for sharing the information.
The Comment Factory is a community of writers, artists and thinkers who want to share their ideas and opinions with the world. thanks for sharing the informative post.
Regards,
Jack
This wants to wage war on Israel, it should find other means of assuring that welfare and if it fails it must, like any government, face the consequences. There have been negotiations to end it, and we have seen it has its reasons. Thanks for sharing.
The use of the name Palestine in English became more common after the european renaissance. The name was not used in ottoman times. Most of christian europe referred to the area as the holy land. It was officially revived by the british after the fall of the ottoman empire and applied to the territory that was placed under the palestine mandate. Thanks a lot.
The photos were quickly re-posted across many blogs, incurring the wrath of angry Tibetan citizens and comments criticizing the couple flooded the internet forums both in Tibetan and Chinese. This must all be seen in context, after the Dalai Lama’s injunction against the wearing of animal fur, a wave of fur burning protests took place in Amdo and Kham. Thanks.