As for the settlers:

I've actually talked to some of these "militant settlers." I've found that some of them are indeed nuts and would never compromise on anything just like some Palestinians are completely committed to pushing the Jews into the sea.

However, even amongst these circles you will find far more pragmatic voices rather than that of the nutjobs. In the end everyone just wants to eat. I'm fairly confident that the majority of people in the settlements are there because the Israeli government offers huge subsidies to move there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/world/middleeas...

One problem I have with Hamas is that after they won the elections their first attacks were on the border crossings.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976384.html

It makes no sense to attack the crossing you expect shipments to come from.

The second statement i disagree with you was in fact about "the most militanit settlers". These people can't be reasoned with. They are nuts. The main problem is they don't even recognize the palestinians existence. I think the same thing can be said about certain members of Hamas. There are a large number of pragmatic palestinians as you've mentioned. There are also a large number of pragmatic Israelis. Rockets targeting civilians doesn't help. Blind settlers also do not help. Nor does an Israeli government and a palestinian government where most of the members are there because they are either corrupt or have excelled in military duties and their world view is tinted by their past, their eternal quest for "security".

I'm glad that we have gotten further away from a shouting match. However, I fail to see where I have put a religious tint in my argumentation. I don't belong to any religious persuasion. However, I have spent a great deal of time working in the Middle East and have become quite familiar with the Islamic religion, its various interpretations, and how it is actually practiced.

Also, I never was an apologist for the rockets that Hamas or other militant groups in the Gaza strip lobbed into southern Israel. However, these rockets pare in comparison to the far more numerous 1-2 ton bombs that Israel has dropped on the strip. Proportionally is a big deal in understanding the conflict. Less than 30 Israelis (including soldiers) have been killed by these rockets in the last 10 years. Meanwhile 1000's of Palestinians have been killed in Israeli bombing campaigns, while 10 of thousands more have been wounded. This is not even including the incredible damage done to the Gazan infrastructure or its economy.

Furthermore, Hamas has stated repeatedly that the rockets are a response to the blockade that was imposed on the strip and the state of occupation that still exists. Israel still controls what goes in and out of the strip, the Gazan airspace, its territorial waters, and many other facets of Gazan life. Under international law this is referred to as a state of siege or occupation.

Yes, Hamas launching rockets is counterproductive as it isint very effective to launch 5-10lb home made unguided rockets against a nuclear armed state. However, their demands were pretty simple: "open up the borders and we will stop." Also, they maintained their end of the deal during the 6month truce. They even arrested members of other militant groups that launched rockets into Israel.

In the end Hamas is a group that can be reasoned with. They changed their founding charter, accepted the two state solution, and have even said that they will end the practice of suicide bombings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/09/israe...

'The suicide bombings happened in an exceptional period and they have now stopped,' he said. 'They came to an end as a change of belief.' According to a Hamas spokesmen.

At the end of the day, the people that make up Hamas are human just like you and I. Ignoring them, when they represent a good number of Palestinians is a sure fire way to avoid any sort of peace settlement. However, their stance today is not as hard line as it used to be. They accept the 1967 Borders for a permanent peace, this is in accord with the International community. If Hamas can make that giant leap forward, I'm sure even the most militant settlers in Israel can as well.

When you sit down and look at what divides us, we are not that far apart ideology. I'm against the settlements. I was for the withdrawal from gaza. I was for the attempted withdrawal from the west bank. Until the rockets from gaza started. Now any peace can't be made by a unilateral withdrawal but by arriving at a deal before a withdrawal along the accords you stated above. Though the right of return is a problematic topic because it basically calls for Israel to commit suicide. In the meantime if people like you make excuses for Hamas rockets in the south the goal of arriving at a peaceful solution inches away. It's the same if you have others justifying settlements. I'll just point out that most of the ardent leftists don't really care about a peaceful solution to the conflict.

Furthermore, you mistranslated the Qur'anic verse. Heres the correct translation.

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your "ALLIES" and protectors They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for protection) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust. [Qur'an 5:51]

The verse is referring to a specific period of time. The Qur'an, although different in style from the Bible and Torah, still writes about events that occurred amongst the early Muslims and is not completely like the book of Proverbs and Psalms.

2:62 Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Notice how the verse says ANYONE who believes in God and works righteousness shall have their reward as the Qur'an refers to it. It may not be specific to those who don't believe in a God, however, the Qur'an does not condemn them outright to hell and tends to place extra emphasis on good deeds, and does not require one to be a Muslim to obtain "paradise." (Also, historically, the term "Ahle Kitab" or People of the book has been extended to Jainists, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Buddhists by Islamic jurists.)

Anyway, lets get back on topic.

The issue I believe at the beginning is this Ezra:

Hamas:

Hamas is a Palestinian resistance group that abides by an Ikhwan type Islamist idealogy (in opposition to Takfiri groups like Al-Qaeda and the Taliban; in fact Hamas has been the major cockblock to groups like Al-Qaeda gaining a foothold in the Palestinian struggle).

Anyway, while initially calling for the complete destruction of Israel, they have now openly stated that they are willing to accept a solution in which the Palestinians would get a state based on the 1967 borders (this is reflected in their Government Manifesto). HOWEVER, the only thing they are uncompromising on is the right of return to all Palestinian refugee's and believe those refugee's should settle in any part of Israel.

Now, I think both of us can agree, that there is now room for negotiations with Hamas. Yes, the right of return is the elephant in the room, however, just like Israeli politicians continually say that Jerusalem will never be divided and that the Palestinians will not have control of the borders of their future state (much less control over its water and resources nor the ability to have its own military), Hamas politicians are also being just as hardline by demanding that all the refugee's return to Israel proper.

Yes, there are some tough positions but we have to understand that Hamas is a very popular group amongst the Palestinians. Secondly, there position is not so hardline anymore. Thirdly, they have stated they will accept any permanent peace based on the 1967 borders 2 state solution. Finally, they accepted the Arab Peace Initiative, a deal that would give Israel peace with ALL its neighbors in the region including Iran, all Israel has to do is pullback to the 1967 borders and allow the formation of a Palestinian state in the 22% of historic Palestine that comprises the West Bank and Gaza strip.

Yes, there will be trial and tribulations, yes die hards from both sides will try to derail it, however, large segments of the population on both sides are more than happy to accept this peace, meaning that once people on the ground see some results, zealots on both sides will be further marginalized.

However, I have to concede this Ezra, Israel is the dominant power in this conflict, they are also the occupying power, and as such only they can make the first drastic move. I know you understand that completely well.

The Koran also says
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors (over the Muslims): They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust. [Qur'an 5:51]

What is funny about the "Kafir" status is Muslims usually say "Jews and Christians are "Ok" because they are the people of the book: as if the rest (Hindus, nonbelievers, atheists, ect.. ) were unpure and actually deserved to be treated inhumanely.

Are you serious? Are you trying to imply that the majority of Palestinians that were living in Palestine are recent immigrants? Is this supposed to be some sort of sick joke Ezra? Shame on you.

Lieberman:

I love how you completely ignored the comment he made about drowning the Arabs, and how he had the buses ready to do so. Then you actually go on to make the claim that he is generously offering the Arabs something good when he is just offering to kick them off their land permanently.

The Mufti:

Nice try linking me to a pro-Zionist (ie. Israeli propaganda site) about the Mufti. The Mufti is a charachter in Palestinian history Ezra, however, his ties with Germany were solely based on their mutual interest in kicking the British out of Palestine. The mufti was not involved in the holocaust in any shape or form, nor did he round up Jews to be sent to their deaths.

I know that you would love to believe this because it makes it easier for you to justify the immense suffering that Israel has pushed upon the Palestinian people for 60 years, but the crimes of Nazi Germany are solely their crimes and the Palestinians had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan:

I never said we give aid to Saudi Arabia, do you even know how to read? As for Pakistan we cut aid to them during their disgusting rampage in Bangaladesh, then we condemned them for it. This does not even take into account the fact that aid to Pakistan is NOTHING compared to aid to Israel.

Furthermore, while Pakistan may not be the "the most stalwart" ally in our so called "War on terror" they have sacrificed more than any other nation thus far in lives and money while also risking an all out civil war in their country.

Meanwhile, Israel makes it difficult for the United States to carry out its foreign policy objectives in the Middle East.

"Americans are aware of what goes on in the middle east. That is why they support the likes of Israel"

Actually they are not Ezra. Did you know that only 4% of the US media even mentioned that the Palestinians live under an Israeli military occupation? Without facts like that, Americans cannot understand why the Palestinians sometimes react violently towards the Israeli's (most Palestinian action has been non-violent, like the weekly protests at Bilin and Nilin).

Here learn about it Ezra.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-66047758...

"As long as the jews were Kafirs they had "good relations" you can't really be selling this crap? "

Actually according to the Islamic holy book the Qur'an, the Jews are considered a people of the book and are guaranteed Paradise just like Muslims and Christians.

2:62 Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Where are Jews considered Kafirs? Furthermore, why were Jews in such high positions throughout most of the Middle East? Surely, politics played a role in that, however, if Jews were considered "Kafirs" as you seem to believe, they would have all been killed or completely shut off from society.

Furthermore, I've traveled through the Middle East including to Israel and the occupied territories. The views I saw were quite moderate most people wanted peace. Even the Palestinians living in squalid refugee camps in the West Bank where kids played in sewage up to their knees said that they would have no problem living side by side with the Jews if they were given equal rights.

Statements you ignored
1) UNRWA defintion of a refugee. Why if a jew from any country emigrated to the ottoman territories or British mandate he is an evil zionist jew that should be kicked out but if an arab had emigrated to the British mandate and had lived their for 3 years he is a "Palestinian Refugee"?

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html

2) You ignore the claims of ethnic cleansing prior to the formation of the state of Israel – the Hebron and East Jerusalem examples I gave.

and there are more claims ignored by you.

3)It is well known that the mufti met with Hitler and had plans to exterminate the jews.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mu...

There are more claims you ignore but I will address your claims

1) Neither of the two people you put up in your links talked about genocide of palestinians as you claim. You put a link up relating to Leiberman, but it seems you yourself have not read the article.
It says:

"Mr Lieberman, for one, has other ideas. He has no intention of withdrawing Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Instead, he wants to keep them while, "in return", redrawing Israel's border to eject thousands of Israeli Arabs from the country."

Meaning he wants to change the borders in such a way that gives an overwhelming arab majority in one country and a jewish one in the other. He want to give parts of Israel to the palestinians in return for settlement blocs. Please do you're homework before putting up links.

I will say, though, that I do not support Leiberman and am certain it is a mistake to put him as the foreign minister. That is the difference between you and I. I acknowledge Israel has problems. In your world Israel is pure evil while the other side can do no wrong, yet I am the one who has been blinded by propaganda.

"Muslims and Jews, and Arabs and Jews"
– As long as the jews were Kafirs they had "good relations" you can't really be selling this crap?

"majority of the world supports the Palestinians"
– The largest religious bloc in the world are muslims who identify with the palestinians. That does not mean they are correct. Ask the same group how many jews would it be worth to kill in order to keep the temple mount. You might be alarmed with most of the answers you get.
– Americans are aware of what goes on in the middle east. That is why they support the likes of Israel over the likes Hizbolla and Hamas.

"Pakistan actually helps us out in the war against Al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan."
– You can't really be serious. There are more than enough cases showing that many in the Pakistan military are in Cahoots with Al queda. Not only that, the U.S. in it's support for Pakistan, supported a Regime that committed genocide against the Bengali. The sheer number of Bengali's dead makes any "massacre" claim against Israel look like a joke.
The Saudi's fund the same jihadist schools that many of the most virulent anti-american "Freedom Fighters" come from. We have nothing in common with them in terms of democratic or human rights values. Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

"We could spend that money on building clean energy or giving uninsured Americans the right to healthcare"
You know what, I agree with you on this point. Lets develop clean energy. Then not one person will give a care in the world about the middle east. Just as horrific genocides in Africa are ignored.

Are you serious? Israeli leaders not only threaten Palestinians with a Shoah on an annual basis but they call for their ethnic cleansing and have not only referred to them as insects but Israeli prime ministers have stated that their is no such thing as a Palestinians.

Israeli official threatens a Shoah on the people of Gaza

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israe...

Heres the foreign minister saying he has the buses ready to round up the Arabs for drowning in the Dead Sea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middlee...

The scary thing is that these people actually have the power to carry out what they say.

Not only that, but the term "Nakba" in Israel is banned from Israeli textbooks, while legislation is in place to jail people for remembering the day that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their land.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/22/israe...

"you have a habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of thousands or millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad"

Where have I made such classifications Ezra? Calm down buddy.

Furthermore, learn about why people in Palestine might support Hamas. You need to stop believing the propaganda campaign and hear what actual Hamas leaders have said about the conflict. See below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKa1kRWX0AA&fe...

"Ever heard of the Grand Mufti who asked Hitler's permission to build a concentration camp to eliminate all the jews in Israel, Indigenous and jewish refugees?"

Thats actually a myth, and the fact that you actually believe that is disturbing Ezra. There is ZERO connection between the Holocaust and Palestinians, for you to even dare say that the Palestinians had anything to do with the holocaust is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.

"You know you are talking about 1492? And the ottomans were not Arabs. Things also change over time."

Muslims and Jews, and Arabs and Jews have had decent relations up until the advent of the state of Israel, when Europeans came and forced the indigenous people of Palestine off their land. The example I cited is just one example of that history. Right now in Morocco, the top adviser to the King is a Jew. Meanwhile, in Europe, Jews suffered numerous persecutions. Its ironic that the people of Palestine have to suffer for the crimes of Europe isint it Ezra.

"it remains a fact that the majority of United States citizens support Israel." You are a minority."

It also remains a fact that the majority of the world supports the Palestinians. Why? Because in the United States most people are completely unaware that the Israelis occupy the Palestinians under a brutal military apparatus.

"What more you have an interest to over exaggerate the support we give Israel in comparison with the Saudis, Egypt, Pakistan and other countries."

What aid do we give the Saudis? The Saudi's are the ones bailing us out of this economy right now. Furthermore, supporting Pakistan actually helps us out in the war against Al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan has already sacrificed thousands of soldiers and civilians, what has Israel done? But I agree with you about Egypt, they don't need our money as it doesn't benefit us in anyway, although it does benefit Israel, the Billion dollars that Egypt gets annually basically ensures that Egypt will maintain the peace with Israel. So in reality its just another billion dollars for Israel.

"The U.S. benefits significantly more from the aid given to Israel in comparison with the aid given to any of the other countries mentioned."

No Ezra, we do not benefit one bit from the aid we give to Israel. Israel creates enemies for us that we do not need because it acts like a belligerent state, it ruins our presitage by forcing us to use our veto in the Security council when it acts belligerantly, it sucks up more money from US Aid than all of Africa and many other countries combined. There is ZERO benefit for the average US citizen for supporting Israel. We could spend that money on building clean energy or giving uninsured Americans the right to healthcare. But I guess you'd rather see that money go towards funding the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.

Ezra, your perversion of logic is ridiculous.

Under international law, Israel is completely responsible for the upkeep of the occupied territories solely because Israel is the occupier.

The money the PA receives is from the international community and insures that Israel does not have to pay for the upkeep of its occupation. Thus, the money to the PA is really just more money for Israel to shirk its responsibility as occupier of the Palestinian territories.

Everytime Israel levels an entire Palestinian neighborhood the international community must rebuild it and foot the cost as well. This is the sad reality.