Israeli propaganda has succeeded in presenting this war as an attack on Hamas. It is actually an attack on civilians.
The Israeli propaganda machine is a well-oiled machine and it has succeeded in presenting this war as solely on Hamas. This is a lie. It is an attack on all Gazans.
By Matt Kennard on Sunday, January 11th, 2009 - 1,184 words.
The Israeli propaganda system is a well-oiled machine. Despite the fact that the Israeli Defense (War?) Force have killed nearly a thousand people in two weeks (a rate of murder faster than Darfur and other regions of genocide), the leaders of the world stay silent apart from limp calls for a ceasefire and crocodile tears for the dead on both sides (which is only a legitimate statement if you accept that one Israeli life is worth a hundred Palestinians).
The protest in London yesterday bought out over 100,000 people, but when murder is happening on this scale the numbers should really have been treble that. The Israeli propaganda system, it’s called “hasbara” in Hebrew, is the reason they weren’t.
The leaders of Israel were smarting from 2006 when their illegal and murderous attack on Lebanon was actually covered by the media on the ground, and they couldn’t keep their massacres of women and children secret. This time they were ready.
They have reputably been planning the attack and its concomitant campaign of brainwashing for six month, and used these Hamas rockets as the pretext that was lying around (the plan was hatched before the ceasefire was even in place). They did the same in Lebanon, a war they had been planning for a considerable period, and, in that case, they used the capture of two soldiers on the border as cover.
The leaders and those in the government complicit in this campaign of disinformation are criminals. But what about the news networks that report all these lies faithfully? This attack on Gaza has not only shown the true depravity of the state of Israel, it has also shown the true depravity of the mainstream media.
I’m living in London at the moment and watching the BBC News has become an impossible exercise. I am just consumed with this all-encompassing rage as I watch the correspondent in Jerusalem or Sderot or the border with Gaza spouting IDF press releases as news. Of course, they aren’t allowed to report in Gaza itself because the Israelis have banned journalists, but when that happened in Zimbabwe the BBC were up in arms, and they smuggled people in anyway. When it comes to Israel? We’ll do it their way.
This slavish acquiescence to the propaganda machine has been mirrored across the print media, aside from the Guardian, which has been surprisingly good during the attack. The most pernicious technique is the attempt to present “both sides of the war”, when in this “war” the scale of death and destruction on one side, and the minor discomfort on the other, makes it two different stories that can’t be equated. You can’t dedicate two minutes to a school being bombed and 40 people dying, and then spend two minutes at a house of an old women who is shaken because a Qassam rocket hit her home early in the morning.
But while the BBC fills me with rage, if I look at the New York Times, Washington Post and other media in the US, it’s more just a case of laughter. I don’t think they realize how ridiculous they look; it’s a comment on the intellectual climate in the United States that as Israel is bombarding Palestinians and killing hundreds of their women and children, the Wall Street Journal felt right to publish an article titled, “Palestinians need Israel”, a jaunty little polemic about how the moderates were going win when Israel had finished killing hundreds of the women and children of Gaza.
The best propaganda victory for the Israeli machine is a simple one that resonates all over the media without exception. Every media says that Israel is engaged in “a war against Hamas”. All news media takes this as their starting point. But this isn’t and never has been a war against just Hamas. It is a war against all Gazans.
Firstly, when you target a democratically-elected government you are targeting the people who voted them in as well, by definition. Secondly, the Israelis have defined police officers and other civilian jobs as Hamas, which is a blatant contravention of the Geneva Convention. Thirdly, every child or woman the Israelis kill they say Hamas was operating close by. This is an open cheque. Hamas is now just a synonym now for “someone we dropped a bomb on”.
You only need to look at the statistics. 827 killed so far in two weeks. It is estimated that of the dead there have been 235 children, 92 women, 62 elderly people, four local journalists and 12 medics, but this cannot be verified because journalists are not allowed into Gaza, so the situation is probably a lot worse. Other estimates predict a third of those killed have been children. Even if we assume this number to be correct that means that nearly a half of all targets kill the wrong people. Or that of the correct targets, the bombing is so imprecise that it kills everyone around the area.
The real modus vivendi was outlined in the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz quite clearly. Its reporter, Reuven Pedatzur, in an article titled, “The mistakes of Cast Lead”, writes:
The IDF, which planned to attack buildings and sites populated by hundreds of people, did not warn them in advance to leave, but intended to kill a great many of them, and succeeded.
Examples of this abound. The UN school, where people were directed to escape the onslaught and then slaughtered was clearly marked. This is one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world. They don’t just make mistakes. As the UNRWA representative told the BBC, they had given Israel the GPS coordinates and clearly marked the school, adding that “nowhere is safe”, i.e.every civilian is a target.
Then the UN driver was killed carrying food into Gaza, which fits into a long history of the IDF targeting the UN and aid agencies, who it seems they must attack because they believe the Palestinians to be human beings worthy of help when caught in what Israeli propaganda calls the “cross-fire”, but is actually targeted attacks on civilians.
This also now include Israeli soldiers, four of which have been killed by “friendly fire”, the same amount as Hamas have killed with their rocket attacks. So you have the ridiculous scenario whereby nearly a thousand Gazans have been killed for crimes committed by Hamas but which have been matched by the Israeli military itself.
And just think about it from a strategic point of view. Whatever you say about Mossad and the Shin Bet they are not stupid. If they wanted to really get rid of Hamas and appeal to what they call the “moderates” (read: quislings) they would not embark on a massacre of unprecedented proportions, which has shown up their ally Mahmous Abbas as the collaborator he is, and increased hostility to Fatah. The purpose is to terrorize the population of Gaza, like they did in 2006 before they attacked Lebanon, and like they will continue to do as long as the Palestinians continue to exist as a people and idea, and serve to remind the Israelis of the terrorism on which their country was founded.
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Matt Kennard
26London
Matt Kennard graduated from the Journalism School at Columbia University as a Toni Stabile Investigative scholar in 2008. He now works for the Financial Times in London. He has written for the Guardian, Salon, The Comment Factory and the Chicago Tribune, amongst others. In 2006 he won the Guardian Student Feature Writer of the Year Award
mattkennard@thecommentfactory.com
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I agree with your content, but your title is in error. The reaction of people worldwide is proof that Israeli propaganda has not succeeded in presenting this war as an attack on Hamas.
I don't know the reaction is condemning the civilian casualties, but these are still seen as "collateral damage" to the war on Hamas. When in fact it should be seen as a deliberate tactic. This is even among critics of Israel's war.
But it's clear you have become part of the HAMAS propaganda machine. It does exist and relies heavily on so-called journalists like you who forgot about objectivity as part of your craft.
What's objectivity? Define it.
this is so true! all wats going on just proves that israel is punishing palestinians for not leaving whats left of palestine
That's the underlying thing.
The war is invisible in nature. God's promise versus Satans rage. God's promise Isreal did nothing but to profane his name and he will protect them not because of them but to protect and sanctify His Name because it's His Name on the line. It's funny to watch the fury of those who oppose God's wishes. He forwarned and promised that this battle will continue to rage until Jesus returns. Nothing can stop it. As it is written: Prophet Zecharia; 14:12 But this will be the nature of the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will decay while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot away in their sockets, and their tongues will dissolve in their mouths. Does this warfare type sound familar? Go ahead and be stubborn and be destroyed the the option is yours.
Journalists shouldn't seek to be objective and impartial but seek truth and encourage thought through the observation and the analysis of fact. Somewhere in between the shit spouted on all sides is what is really happening.
When I asked the IDF spokesperson (around 20yrs old, reservist, canned American accent with Hebrew venom, claimed to work at YNet as a day job…so also a journalist) about the UN lorry incident, she said the official line was that the Major General in charge of operations in the south signed off a form saying that the IDF could not have shot the driver because their forces were not in a position to do so. They looked at where their troops were on the ground and looked at where the driver was. "It couldn't have been us."
So. Who could it have been?
"Them. The terrorists. Hamas."
How do you know?
"We have carried out a thorough investigation of the incident and conclude that we did not fire on the truck".
So Palestinians fired on an aid truck with aid meant for them?
"Must've. We did not fire on the truck."
Why would they do that?
"You have to ask Hamas. They were firing at us."
So there was a cross-fire?
"Yeah. There was a cross-fire."
And the truck got caught in it?
"Yeah. The truck got caught in it."
Did this investigation include a thorough forensic and physical analysis of the truck itself? If so, is the truck currently in your hands? So…if it was thorough, you must know what gauge firearm was used and from what angle the bullets came in at…. Did you establish a sterile investigation area when you were carrying out this investigation? What did this investigation consist of because eyewitness statements hardly qualify as 'thorough'?
"You'll have to speak to the Civil Administration office. We are happy with the results of our investigation."
So it's a civillian issue, not a military one? Why is the IDF carrying out investigations about civillian issues?
"COGAT handles civil issues."
A military office negotiating civil issues?
And so we go on for some time. The fact of the matter is, differentiating between what is military, religious and civillian in Israeli society is like asking a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
True that.
I haven't noticed anyone ever in the slightest speaking up for HAMAS in any way on the BBC, they're all busy reciting the HAMAS bashing propaganda, and "it must stop firing the rockets" as a prerequisite for a ceasefire. This has now more than ever become an achingly outrageous and indeed enraging demand to make on HAMAS. The HAMAS rockets are nothing more than a symbol of defiance, and the Israelis can't take it. They're causing not even a fraction of the damge that the Israelis are causing in Gaza. They actually had some cript on Sky News the audacity to refer to Hamas rockets as war crimes. Please give me a break, The Israeli pack of lies is getting more outrageous by the hour, and every horrendous hour costs lives.
Israel's war on terror has become a God Allmighty farce and defeat for Israel, finally exposing Israel as the morally decrepid and degenerate rogue oppressor of all time! Israel is the terrorist, Israel is the one terrorising a civilian population of 1.5 million people. Israel is decrepidly defending it's own oh so precious population within any HAMAS rocket range from nothing more than mild harrassment, in comparison to the unrelenting vast onslought she's imposing with outrageous impunity on a civilian population she has absolutely no human feelings towards at all.
It is time for a world wide uprising of all civilians, Muslim, Christian, Humanist, and those Jews that have not been brainwashed into complete blind megalomania, that has taken on the most horrifying criminal proportions… it is time now for all civilians, of all colour, creed, and race, with any moral fibre and eyes to see, to rise up in unanimous support of HAMAS, who are one with the people of Palestine, and who are simply trying to liberate their people from the most god awful oppression they've been enduring patiently with unrelenting courage for decades. How dare anyone not acknowledge and fully accept the human right of the people of Palestine to be represented and protected by HAMAS, and it's weapons, which are only the most basic in comparison to Israel's military arsenal.
Israel is so busy justifying it's senseless slaughter with it's right to self-defense, she fails to appreciate completely how a people being thus viciously attacked and traumatized can not possibly be expected to lay down their arms for the love of God! The Palestinians have endured a long history of Israeli attacks and murders and abuses. No wonder they wish destruction upon Israel, the Palestinians, the Muslims, and all, all those appalled by Israel's god forsaken crimes. What Israel has to realise is that there would be far less chance of her being hated and despised if she were a peace-loving caring-sharing kind of state. But all Israel is capable of doing is being consumed by her paranoia that the Muslim world wishes destruction upon it, which probably springs from the fact that from the beginning of the creation of her state she's been pretty nasty to people, chasing them out of their properties, and their land, and doing quite a bit of killing in the process. She tries to allay her fears, by the argument that this is common practice in the process of nation building, and just keeps killing right on, and unsurprisingly her paranoia keeps growing. She doesn't make the connection, that if she'd stop killing and being such a Fascist Zionist and truly anti-Semitic, racist, control freak, thug, and psychopath, if she could just take a deep breath and turn away from her evil ways, acknowledge her wrong and make reparations for it, and start reaching out to people, of all creeds and races, including the Arab world at large, the balance might just tip in her favour, if she truly mends her ways and makes it snappy, and repents. Then there could just be a very real chance of the outbreak of world peace by the healing of rifts and wounds! The way she's carrying on though in complete delusion, hell bent on her war path is frightening, and putting world peace in grave danger, let alone peace in the Middle East.
Israel needs to relinquish her obsessive compulsive emotional investment in her sense of national security and stop being so self-important and start realising there are other humans around her, that also have their own security needs. Israel needs to realise that anyone with any sense and any humanity is now a fervent Pro-Palestinian not for pity's sake, but for God's sake. Pro-Palestinian and Pro Hamas 100% we need to get this issue settled once and for all urgently. It's a matter of life and death. The life or death of a whole people, which we should not abandon to the wanton will of an illegally encroaching rogue state,The Israeli's want a continued subjugation and stranglehold on the people of Palestine. That's what their actions communicate. That is not a viable proposal for a free and sovereign Palestinian state, the people of Palestine have been in captivity for long enough. Israel needs to stop the duplicity and the double standards the depraved beastly violence that is damaging far too many civilians for life, Heartless, brainless, decrepid, insane war criminals, the foul leaders of Israel! We must take them to ransom very quickly. They need a lesson in fairness and justice, and the most basic ethics.
Touche. Can you write this up Magdalena?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok9CLFOavj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxDnnyTnn78
Oh and that Israeli army commander woman L … ( can't remember her name exactly) had the audacity to say that HAMAS have a cynical disregard for the lives of their civilians and use them as human shields, so therefor there are likely to be more civilian deaths in the final phase! Is this heading for Mass extermination that they can conveniently blame Hamas for? What conniving evil we've been watching unfold on our TV screens, Her claim was refuted by a UN spokesperson who said he has no reason to believe that this happens. Holy Lord, I am so frightened, I think the Israelis are completely mad and out of control. No wonder the Israelis hate the UN, their war crimes just won't go unnoticed.
I've had enough of the horror. I'm sick with worry just watching it, and I'm deeply distressed about where on earth this is going. It's a highly unethical immoral indefensible war from start to finish. The mad insistence about how would you feel and what would you do if you continually had to hide in bomb shelters, and were attacked? Well, What would YOU do if you were bombed the way YOU were bombed by HAMAS? I'd hate to think? Britain did suffer quite a few terrorist bomb attacks that took quite a few lives and caused quite some insecurity, quite passively, without bombing anyone in return. Britain eventually realized that dialogue was the way, to at least inquire what was the matter?
The comparatively benign HAMAS bombs, they were a protest against the occupation, "We're not having it" Instead of doing the only just and ethical thing and dismantling the settlements promptly in return for peace, the Israelis decided to wage war and see if they get away with not returning anything by diverting attention, and very probably making more illegal aquisitions and encroachments. They've had a bloody history of it, and the Palestinians have had enough of it and so have we. Israel should be tried for war crimes and otherwise and held to account on all fronts, really thoroughly. Israel needs to make a dramatic u turn.
Infact I think we, people of the world should demand that all the Israeli ministers and military commanders should resign and be charged for war crimes and they should cleanse their political system from militant zealots and find representatives that are not military fanatics and Apartheid perpetrators, who understand exactly what human rights entail, who actually have an appreciation of the ordeal the Palestinians have endured and the kind of reperations they should receive for the destruction of their properties and many lives, not just of the most recent episode of an atrocity. I sincerely hope there are enlightened Israelis to be found that don't find it too much of an imposition to treat Palestinians as equals, not inferiors that can be subjugated, and most horribly squashed and silenced, as they have been with impunity for years. We can't take any more of that heart breaking injustice.
IDF Spokesperson Avital Liebovitch….
Olmert's spokes, Mark Regev
They swan up and down the tv offices on Jaffa St and in Malha with the sole purpose of offering soundbites and propaganda. But they are mouthpieces. Getting your hands on anyone who actually has any say in the matter is far more difficult.
HAMAS are not unreasonable extremist fanatics, as the Israeli propaganda would have all of us believe, at all, this is a complete and gigantic misrepresentation, a legalized falsification, initiated by none other than the Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert after HAMAS got democratically elected, because Ehud Olmert realised they meant business and were hard bargainers and no push overs like the guys from FATAH who could be easily manipulated, He realised that he'd have to make some real and final concessions that he didn't want to make. HAMAS are freedom fighters, fighting for their lives, and they should never have been pushed that far, to this onslought from the air for 15 days, and soldiers on the ground, on top of a prior siege that had lasted for months prior to that, while continuing to last until this day. All this 3 years after HAMAS has been "legitimately" elected!! Wakey Wakey! Democratically elected meaning the people supported them, not to be mistaken with the notion that the people were terrorized by them. Get it? In fact some, either EU or UN representative, confirmed this fact just today on BBC News 24, that the spokespeople of HAMAS made a perfectly reasonable impression utterly ready to negotiate and open minded and not fanatic in any way, I also watched two interviews with two seperate spokespeople, during the heart wrenching onslaught of the last 16 days and they were a perfect example of robust reason and sanity and extremely stoic in the face the forces unleashed against them. Indeed truely heroic freedom fighters demanding basic viable conditions for their sovereign state of Palestine, that's not constantly impinged upon and threatened by these soulless self agrandizing criminal Israeli propaganda machines, that grind on like bull dozers, devoid of any sensitivity and consideration what so ever towards others.
Israel needs to devolve her military, cause she's prooved to us, though she claims to be civilized, that she's a trigger happy brute force, with no sense of proportion, and that she's an unbearable control freak witha a mania of laying down the law on others all around her, She needs to get a lot of things straight, and completely change her culture and aproach, and she will only begin to do that when she gets swamped with a massive campaign of very overwhelming counter brainwashing, But meanwhile we can only pray and hope that this dreadful military campaign callously dicing with the precious lives of so many, will be denounced by our leaders. And the utter treachery of Ehud Olmert's wicked plan to drive down the Palestinian formation of nationhood, and his dehumanizing and demonizing campaign of Hamas; utterly criminal, evil. Also, the Israeli national penchant for Islamophobia needs to be dealt with,
They need some serious councelling those Israelis, but they need the law to come down hard on them.
The Geneva Convention means nothing. Why is it that only the civilized nations are expected to adhere to it? Did the Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, North Vietnamese, or the savages in Africa ever comply with the Convention? No, of copurse not. There are no rules in war. In war you slaughter as many of your enemies as you possibly can. There are no such thing as "innocent civilians". The worl will belong to the ruler who stands up and reacts with merciless, ruthless brutality. The "civilized" cowards will quickly acquiesce to his strength on pain of death. Slaughter enough people and the rest will quickly fall into line. All Hail Hadrian Augustus Dominus, he to whom the Earth is a footstool.
Are you made up?
Nah, just a knob.
Israel has the right to defend as a country.
Hamas is a bunch of cowards that fight among civilians.
Hamas has to learn from this a lesson never ever fight with Israel Again.
Also, Where are the Hamas leaders? They also cowards.
Long Life to Israel
Evidence?
Hamas are cowards, but the people of Gaza aren't, they won't be bludgeoned into submission.
Cowards are also bullies. The image of the Israeli Sabra is intended to brag about Jewish power — a fierce determination to no longer revert to the image of the pitiful and cowering Jew that was spread around the world following WWII.
Now we see images of pitiful and cowering Gazans.
Peter…what, if you were around in the time of the British Mandate, would you call Haganah and Irgun?
to Denis
You are quite right, Hamas does exist and is the invention of Mossad.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.htm...
The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."
In order to understand what is occurring it is crucial to look behind the curtain
"Pay No Attention To That Man Behind the Curtain" seems the watch word, eh?
Hamas/Palestinians will go down in history like every other indigenous population in the world, defeated but yet still defiant. Not sure why they dont just spend money on food rather than rockets, open casinos and start making a prosperous life for themselves. I love how journalists who report on this and other situations conveniently forget the 1000's of rockets shelled at Israel, a few of which actually fell short and killed their own people. Hamas and other groups like them are barbarians with weaponry far more advanced than their emotional maturity.
"Not sure why they dont just spend money on food rather than rockets, "
About 90% of Hamas money is believed to be spent on infrastructure and 10% on weapons. For the last 15 years, they are the ONLY ones that have been building schools, hospitals, and providing any real security. – Not that you'd know this if you only watch English speaking news. Fatah was a hopelessly corrupt organization that just stole money. Hamas, as bad as you think it is, is infinitely better than they Fatah. Hamas is seen as the ONLY people that will protect Palestinians from Israelis. Palestinians are "human shields" for Hamas just as much as Londoners were "human shields" for Winston Churchill during the blitz in WWII. You're just a victim of propaganda and cannot recognize it. Palestinians will no more see Hamas as the enemy than Englishmen saw Churchill as the enemy.
(wicks) yet another ignorant baseless view… pathetic
shooting out of schools… bomb factories in kindergardens, and children as holy martyrs. You have no idea what's going on.
and crucifixion for "collaborators", throwing fatah people of off buildings, that's all very "egalitarian" right?
I agree with you. If Hamas , instead of feeding hatred ,would invest the milions of dollars/euros they recived from the international comunity, in food , education, housing and job market for his own people, Israel would never have an reason to atack them. Hamas only political project is to destroy Israel . How can such a narrow minded organization creat peace and prosperity? I do not agree with the atack in Gaza, but , yes Hamas was responsable for all the deaths as well, and absurdly, celebrate that.
And about the rockets not being enough reason to reacting. Think of having it in your neibourhood,including livingroom, everyday for years. Would it be enough?
Hamas don't send an atomic bomb because they haven't got one, not because they are more sensible then Israelis.
Hamas doesent receive millions of dollars from the international community, you must be referring to Fatah.
Most Hamas money has gone towards infrastructure projects. Do you really think that home made sugar powered rockets cost a lot of money to manufacture?? What high tech weaponry is Hamas spending its money on?
Arayus-
Please don't show us your ignorance. Hamas has other weapons besides rockets including antitank missiles, guns, bullets, mines and other weapon types. They mainly get this from Iran. If you'll be kind enough to remember, during the gaza strike, Israel or the US bombed a weapons shipment in Sudan.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/03/31/6961...
They also have a large funding base through charities and other such organizations.
Spare me the bullshit Ezra.
Where are the Hamas anti-tank missiles? Are you referring to the home made anti-tank missiles that Hamas manufactures? Also what Iranian weapons? We didn't see any of the types of weapons that Hezbollah utilized in the latest Israeli perpetrated massacre of the Gaza strip. According to the FACTS, Hamas possesses AK-47's (World War 2 era weapon) and 3rd generation (obselete) RPG's, and of course a plethora of home made rockets many of which use sugar as a propellent…..
The fact remains that Hamas utilizes very low tech weaponry and there is no established link proving that Iran is the dominant supplier of Hamas weaponry, and even if they were? So what?
Finally, your link to Al-Arabiya (an anti-Iranian news station in the Middle East) only uses the testimony of IDF personal to verify where the arms convoy came from. No other evidence is used.
"They also have a large funding base through charities and other such organizations."
Israel has a much larger funding base, that not only includes various pro-Zionist charities but actually takes money from my paycheck, and every other hard earned American paycheck to the tune of more than 3 Billion Dollars a year. This is on top of all the freebies we throw Israel such as spare weapons and munitions, and the veto they get from us in the Security Council.
That's right, Hamas has no weapons. Now where do you get your facts? Just plain knowledge or your extensive Intel resources? LOL
Your point that they use sugar propelled rockets (with KNO3) just goes to prove they would rather bomb Israel with rockets than feed their own people.
While Al-Arabiya is against Iran, they are certainly not pro Israel. Who are we supposed to get our info from Ahmedinijad himself?
The US gives Israel money to buy weapons made in the US. This trade agreement has benefited the US as well with many new ideas coming out of Israel. An example would be the pioneering of Unmanned Aircrafts which Israel and the US developed and the US has benefited from its cooperation with Israel. The UAVs are the main weapon used in places like afghanistan.
Spare us the bullshit and just say you're a hamas supporter and then we'll have a genuine debate.
"Al-Arabiya is against Iran"
Meaning that Al-Arabiya cannot be trusted when it reports on Iran. They have also been pro-Israel on numerous occasions.
"Your point that they use sugar propelled rockets (with KNO3) just goes to prove they would rather bomb Israel with rockets than feed their own people."
Doesen't prove anything Ezra, Hamas actually spends more of its money proportionally on food and infrastructure than Israel does. Furthermore, it was Israel that broke the truce with Hamas not Hamas that broke the truce with Israel.
"The US gives Israel money to buy weapons made in the US. This trade agreement has benefited the US as well with many new ideas coming out of Israel."
No.
Israel does not have to buy all its weapons from America, they only have to buy a certain percentage of US weapons with our aid money, and often they don't even do that because of all the freebies we throw at them.
This does not even take into account the simple fact that the aid money we send Israel is not dedicated to their military. Much of it is used to prop up the inefficient Israeli economy that would collapse without the money from every single hard earned American paycheck.
The aid does not even count the loan guarantees we give Israel, which are basically loans that Israel does not have to pay back.
Furthermore, we waste our money helping Israel develop weapons that don't work (like the Lavi fighter jet and retarded ineffective missile systems).
Finally, Israel has sold American weapons to Apartheid South Africa (including fighter jet technology), and constantly sells our weapon systems to unauthorized countries like China.
"An example would be the pioneering of Unmanned Aircrafts which Israel and the US developed"
"The UAVs are the main weapon used in places like afghanistan."
And they seem to kill far more civilians than actual militants… well go figure, thats all that Israeli weapons are good for.
So spare me the bullshit Ezra, and just admit that your pro ethnic cleansing and then we can have a real debate.
Oh and here are some fun facts that you pro-Israel nutjobs love to ignore.
Hamas actually removed its call for the destruction of Israel when it created its government manifesto.
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israe…” target=”_blank”>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israe…
And all top Hamas leaders have agreed to any peace deal with Israel that would be BASED on the 1967 borders.
<a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html” target=”_blank”>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
So even the most extreme mainstream group amongst the Palestinians is willing to settle for a peace deal based on the international consensus. Meanwhile, Israel continues to do everything to prevent that by expanding the settlements and continuing the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
Shame on you Ezra.
1)"Al-Arabiya is against Iran"
"Meaning that Al-Arabiya cannot be trusted when it reports on Iran. They have also been pro-Israel on numerous occasions."
– Under your own logic, you and the comment factory editors cannot be trusted when reporting on Israel. Funny how that works.
2) "it was Israel that broke the truce with Hamas not Hamas that broke the truce with Israel."
and
"all top Hamas leaders have agreed to any peace deal with Israel that would be BASED on the 1967 borders."
– Stop playing dumb, though I love the doublespeak. Hamas has not agreed to a peace deal with Israel. They agreed on a "ten year" truce. In all of their internal talks Hamas states that the ten year truce is the first step in it's war against Israel. Here are just two of the principles in their covenant:
1)"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
2)"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
–Not exactly an admirable constitution. Nor one worth defending. I'm not against trying to talk to Hamas. But you have to be pragmatic about it.
Nor do I think the Israelis government has always pursued peace when it should have.
"we waste our money helping Israel develop weapons that don't work (like the Lavi fighter jet and retarded ineffective missile systems)"
– It was American pressure that stopped the Lavi fighter jet because the U.S. was worried about competition. In return the U.S. promised to help support the Israeli Airforce.
Also, Israel did not receive aid from the U.S. prior to 1973. During the 73 war Israel helped establish the U.S. weapon dominance over the U.S.S.R when it beat Egypt and Syria who were equipped with predominantly Soviet equipment.
"just admit that your pro ethnic cleansing and then we can have a real debate."
– Jews once numbered in the hundreds of thousands in the middle east. Jews were dispersed in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Jerusalem, Hebron, Iraq, Tunisia, Morroco, Iran, Yemen, modern day Israel and more. They were ethnically cleansed, besides in Israel, and now inhabit 00.20% of the middle east. All the other countries surrounding Israel (besides Lebanon) consider themselves Muslim states or arab dictatorships with a strong muslim connection. Most have strong laws against jews and minorities.
And you say I'm for ethnic cleansing?
Shame on you.
I'm against the settlements in the west bank and I was against the settlements in Gaza. What are you for, exactly?
http://www.sizeofisrael.com/
"Here are just two of the principles in their covenant:"
Sorry Ezra, but even Khalid Meshaal and Haniyeh have both stated that the "Hamas Covenant" is merely a historical document now and that they solely abide by their government manifesto. I will link it to you again. Nice try trying to avoid the point and bring up meaningless bullshit.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israe...
Furthermore, the foundation of Israel was made on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. The fact that Israel in its current apartheid form will never allow those refugee's to return is a far greater transgression against peace than is the "Hamas covenant" that was created more than 20 years ago in the chaos of the first intifada, when Israel was bombing hospitals, schools, water treatment facilities, and entire villages, while not allowing Palestinians to attend schools or universities for almost 4 years.
Remember Ezra, the simple fact remains that Hamas changed its manifesto and abides by one that says that they will continue to resist the Israeli occupation while completely dropping the call for the destruction of Israel.
"Also, Israel did not receive aid from the U.S. prior to 1973."
Where did I even say that? In any case, despite this claim of yours, Israel has received in excess of 100 billion dollars from the United States alone. Thats just from my tax dollars. This does not include government loans to Israel (which have mostly never been paid back), does not include all the free weapons we give Israel, does not include all the money that goes to Israel from charities in the United States that support ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza etc.
It also does not take into consideration the veto we give to Israel at the expense of American prestige in the world. This conflict would have been resolved ages ago if Israel merely abides by just a handful of the dozens of UN resolutions leveled against it.
" [Jews]They were ethnically cleansed, besides in Israel, and now inhabit 00.20% of the middle east. All the other countries surrounding Israel (besides Lebanon) consider themselves Muslim states or arab dictatorships with a strong muslim connection. Most have strong laws against jews and minorities."
Keep in mind Ezra that these events happened AFTER Israel ethnically cleansed the indigenous Palestinian population from their lands, not before Europeans came to Palestine and ethnically cleansed the population there. Prior to that Jews were living mainly in Morocco, Egypt, Yemen, and Baghdad. Some of them were well off, some of them werent. Furthermore, these Jews had a state to go to, the Palestinians did not have a state to go to. You should also keep in mind the amiable relationship that Jews and Muslims had. When the Spanish kicked out the Jews it was the Ottoman Muslims that not only took them in but built them their own city.
Also, your racist argument that the Palestinians could go to any Arab or Muslim state is disgusting. Would it be ok to ethnically cleanse an El Salvadorian and tell him to go Mexico because people speak Spanish and practice Catholicism there?
"What are you for, exactly?"
I'm for peace and justice.
The only solution Israel has at this point is to either accept the 2 state solution proposed by the Arab Initiative that would give Israel 78% of historic Palestine. OR they will need to give the Palestinians equal rights and citizenship in the state of Israel. The only 3rd option that Israel has is to carry out a mass genocide against the Palestinian people, something that many law makers and high officials in the country of Israel seem to have no qualms about. However, judging by the history of persecution against the Jewish people of Europe, I highly doubt the Israeli population will be able to stomach such an event.
1) Lets point out that any source I put up you point to it and say it is false because it is pro Israel, but Pro Palestinian sources are Ok? I'm not refuting your arguments about Hamas's manifesto, I just hope you recognize your slanted debate platform.
2) Hamas has come some ways from overtly calling for the destruction of Israel and citing the "Protocols of Zion". Yet they still call for an Islamic state in all of Israel, with jews given Kafir status at best.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=114349...
Those are the facts
3) Your arguments against aid for Israel are meaningless. It remains a fact that the majority of United States citizens support Israel. You are a minority. What more you have an interest to over exaggerate the support we give Israel in comparison with the Saudis, Egypt, Pakistan and other countries. The U.S. benefits significantly more from the aid given to Israel in comparison with the aid given to any of the other countries mentioned.
By the way the aid does include the weapons. Stop creating facts.
4)"Keep in mind Ezra that these events happened AFTER Israel ethnically cleansed the indigenous Palestinian population from their lands"
– Once again the facts are against you. Ever heard of the Hebron massacre? Which ethnically cleansed the jewish population in Hebron in 1929?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hebron+massacre&am...
Ever heard of the Grand Mufti who asked Hitler's permission to build a concentration camp to eliminate all the jews in Israel, Indigenous and jewish refugees?
You also ignore that it was the arabs unwillingness to accept a jewish state in all of arabia that led them to attack the state of Israel. During which they ethnically cleansed east jerusalem.
What more you ignore the fact that many of the "Indigenous Palestinians" themselves were arab workers that had immigrated to Israel to take advantage of the new prosperity. Take a look at what a refugee is considered for the 48 war.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html
Or is UNRWA also pro israel?
"When the Spanish kicked out the Jews"
You know you are talking about 1492? And the ottomans were not Arabs. Things also change over time.
"your racist argument that the Palestinians could go to any Arab or Muslim state is disgusting"
a)Jordan is 80% palestinian and part of the historic British Mandate.
b) I never argued this.
c) You're the racist. While you are more than happy to have jews live as second class citizens and will probably argue how great jews have it in Iran. You scream bloody murder when talking about palestinians.
I have never argued that everything is perfect but you have a habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of thousands or millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’.
In your final argument I agree with you until you go overboard with your statement about law makers and high officials. Show me one case where an official called for the genocide of Palestinians. You're full of it. Here is Hamas in their own words. Words cherished and defended by you by your unadmitted motives of defending Hamas and not once criticizing them in order to push their agenda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxErvEzfoO0
"Show me one case where an official called for the genocide of Palestinians."
Are you serious? Israeli leaders not only threaten Palestinians with a Shoah on an annual basis but they call for their ethnic cleansing and have not only referred to them as insects but Israeli prime ministers have stated that their is no such thing as a Palestinians.
Israeli official threatens a Shoah on the people of Gaza
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israe...
Heres the foreign minister saying he has the buses ready to round up the Arabs for drowning in the Dead Sea.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middlee...
The scary thing is that these people actually have the power to carry out what they say.
Not only that, but the term "Nakba" in Israel is banned from Israeli textbooks, while legislation is in place to jail people for remembering the day that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their land.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/22/israe...
"you have a habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of thousands or millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad"
Where have I made such classifications Ezra? Calm down buddy.
Furthermore, learn about why people in Palestine might support Hamas. You need to stop believing the propaganda campaign and hear what actual Hamas leaders have said about the conflict. See below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKa1kRWX0AA&fe...
"Ever heard of the Grand Mufti who asked Hitler's permission to build a concentration camp to eliminate all the jews in Israel, Indigenous and jewish refugees?"
Thats actually a myth, and the fact that you actually believe that is disturbing Ezra. There is ZERO connection between the Holocaust and Palestinians, for you to even dare say that the Palestinians had anything to do with the holocaust is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.
"You know you are talking about 1492? And the ottomans were not Arabs. Things also change over time."
Muslims and Jews, and Arabs and Jews have had decent relations up until the advent of the state of Israel, when Europeans came and forced the indigenous people of Palestine off their land. The example I cited is just one example of that history. Right now in Morocco, the top adviser to the King is a Jew. Meanwhile, in Europe, Jews suffered numerous persecutions. Its ironic that the people of Palestine have to suffer for the crimes of Europe isint it Ezra.
"it remains a fact that the majority of United States citizens support Israel." You are a minority."
It also remains a fact that the majority of the world supports the Palestinians. Why? Because in the United States most people are completely unaware that the Israelis occupy the Palestinians under a brutal military apparatus.
"What more you have an interest to over exaggerate the support we give Israel in comparison with the Saudis, Egypt, Pakistan and other countries."
What aid do we give the Saudis? The Saudi's are the ones bailing us out of this economy right now. Furthermore, supporting Pakistan actually helps us out in the war against Al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan has already sacrificed thousands of soldiers and civilians, what has Israel done? But I agree with you about Egypt, they don't need our money as it doesn't benefit us in anyway, although it does benefit Israel, the Billion dollars that Egypt gets annually basically ensures that Egypt will maintain the peace with Israel. So in reality its just another billion dollars for Israel.
"The U.S. benefits significantly more from the aid given to Israel in comparison with the aid given to any of the other countries mentioned."
No Ezra, we do not benefit one bit from the aid we give to Israel. Israel creates enemies for us that we do not need because it acts like a belligerent state, it ruins our presitage by forcing us to use our veto in the Security council when it acts belligerantly, it sucks up more money from US Aid than all of Africa and many other countries combined. There is ZERO benefit for the average US citizen for supporting Israel. We could spend that money on building clean energy or giving uninsured Americans the right to healthcare. But I guess you'd rather see that money go towards funding the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
There is no point in having this debate if you either ignore or continuously claim all my statements are false, while at the same time make easily refuted claims yourself.
Statements you ignored
1) UNRWA defintion of a refugee. Why if a jew from any country emigrated to the ottoman territories or British mandate he is an evil zionist jew that should be kicked out but if an arab had emigrated to the British mandate and had lived their for 3 years he is a "Palestinian Refugee"?
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html
2) You ignore the claims of ethnic cleansing prior to the formation of the state of Israel – the Hebron and East Jerusalem examples I gave.
and there are more claims ignored by you.
3)It is well known that the mufti met with Hitler and had plans to exterminate the jews.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mu...
There are more claims you ignore but I will address your claims
1) Neither of the two people you put up in your links talked about genocide of palestinians as you claim. You put a link up relating to Leiberman, but it seems you yourself have not read the article.
It says:
"Mr Lieberman, for one, has other ideas. He has no intention of withdrawing Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Instead, he wants to keep them while, "in return", redrawing Israel's border to eject thousands of Israeli Arabs from the country."
Meaning he wants to change the borders in such a way that gives an overwhelming arab majority in one country and a jewish one in the other. He want to give parts of Israel to the palestinians in return for settlement blocs. Please do you're homework before putting up links.
I will say, though, that I do not support Leiberman and am certain it is a mistake to put him as the foreign minister. That is the difference between you and I. I acknowledge Israel has problems. In your world Israel is pure evil while the other side can do no wrong, yet I am the one who has been blinded by propaganda.
"Muslims and Jews, and Arabs and Jews"
– As long as the jews were Kafirs they had "good relations" you can't really be selling this crap?
"majority of the world supports the Palestinians"
– The largest religious bloc in the world are muslims who identify with the palestinians. That does not mean they are correct. Ask the same group how many jews would it be worth to kill in order to keep the temple mount. You might be alarmed with most of the answers you get.
– Americans are aware of what goes on in the middle east. That is why they support the likes of Israel over the likes Hizbolla and Hamas.
"Pakistan actually helps us out in the war against Al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan."
– You can't really be serious. There are more than enough cases showing that many in the Pakistan military are in Cahoots with Al queda. Not only that, the U.S. in it's support for Pakistan, supported a Regime that committed genocide against the Bengali. The sheer number of Bengali's dead makes any "massacre" claim against Israel look like a joke.
The Saudi's fund the same jihadist schools that many of the most virulent anti-american "Freedom Fighters" come from. We have nothing in common with them in terms of democratic or human rights values. Are you making this stuff up as you go along?
"We could spend that money on building clean energy or giving uninsured Americans the right to healthcare"
You know what, I agree with you on this point. Lets develop clean energy. Then not one person will give a care in the world about the middle east. Just as horrific genocides in Africa are ignored.
By the way, the Palestinians get funds as well. Not bad, 200 million now, Part of 900 million pledged.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1102682.html
"By the way, the Palestinians get funds as well. Not bad, 200 million now, Part of 900 million pledged."
Ezra, your perversion of logic is ridiculous.
Under international law, Israel is completely responsible for the upkeep of the occupied territories solely because Israel is the occupier.
The money the PA receives is from the international community and insures that Israel does not have to pay for the upkeep of its occupation. Thus, the money to the PA is really just more money for Israel to shirk its responsibility as occupier of the Palestinian territories.
Everytime Israel levels an entire Palestinian neighborhood the international community must rebuild it and foot the cost as well. This is the sad reality.
"if an arab had emigrated to the British mandate and had lived their for 3 years he is a "Palestinian Refugee"?"
Are you serious? Are you trying to imply that the majority of Palestinians that were living in Palestine are recent immigrants? Is this supposed to be some sort of sick joke Ezra? Shame on you.
Lieberman:
I love how you completely ignored the comment he made about drowning the Arabs, and how he had the buses ready to do so. Then you actually go on to make the claim that he is generously offering the Arabs something good when he is just offering to kick them off their land permanently.
The Mufti:
Nice try linking me to a pro-Zionist (ie. Israeli propaganda site) about the Mufti. The Mufti is a charachter in Palestinian history Ezra, however, his ties with Germany were solely based on their mutual interest in kicking the British out of Palestine. The mufti was not involved in the holocaust in any shape or form, nor did he round up Jews to be sent to their deaths.
I know that you would love to believe this because it makes it easier for you to justify the immense suffering that Israel has pushed upon the Palestinian people for 60 years, but the crimes of Nazi Germany are solely their crimes and the Palestinians had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Saudi Arabia and Pakistan:
I never said we give aid to Saudi Arabia, do you even know how to read? As for Pakistan we cut aid to them during their disgusting rampage in Bangaladesh, then we condemned them for it. This does not even take into account the fact that aid to Pakistan is NOTHING compared to aid to Israel.
Furthermore, while Pakistan may not be the "the most stalwart" ally in our so called "War on terror" they have sacrificed more than any other nation thus far in lives and money while also risking an all out civil war in their country.
Meanwhile, Israel makes it difficult for the United States to carry out its foreign policy objectives in the Middle East.
"Americans are aware of what goes on in the middle east. That is why they support the likes of Israel"
Actually they are not Ezra. Did you know that only 4% of the US media even mentioned that the Palestinians live under an Israeli military occupation? Without facts like that, Americans cannot understand why the Palestinians sometimes react violently towards the Israeli's (most Palestinian action has been non-violent, like the weekly protests at Bilin and Nilin).
Here learn about it Ezra.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-66047758...
"As long as the jews were Kafirs they had "good relations" you can't really be selling this crap? "
Actually according to the Islamic holy book the Qur'an, the Jews are considered a people of the book and are guaranteed Paradise just like Muslims and Christians.
2:62 Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Where are Jews considered Kafirs? Furthermore, why were Jews in such high positions throughout most of the Middle East? Surely, politics played a role in that, however, if Jews were considered "Kafirs" as you seem to believe, they would have all been killed or completely shut off from society.
Furthermore, I've traveled through the Middle East including to Israel and the occupied territories. The views I saw were quite moderate most people wanted peace. Even the Palestinians living in squalid refugee camps in the West Bank where kids played in sewage up to their knees said that they would have no problem living side by side with the Jews if they were given equal rights.
Look, lets get this straight. I'm not for Leiberman. I hope he is brought up on criminal charges and kicked out of the government. I'm also not for the settlements. I'm against them and I have no problem with the U.S. putting pressure on Israel.
The main point where we differ are
1) Your view of the historical events that took place.
2) Your unwillingness to criticize any crimes perpetrated by the palestinians or the arabs in the region.
3) Your acceptance of discrimination of jews as if it were a second thought.
4) Your claimed ignorance to the fact that there have always been jews in the land. That they were ethnically cleansed in such places as Hebron and east jerusalem.
You wonder why so many americans support Israel. It is exactly because of people like you who are so unevenhanded that they leave no alternative. You continuously downplay Hamas, Hizbolla and other Islamist groups or states. You basically leave no alternative, because to anyone with half a brain it is clear that these groups want to impose Sharia law and if they had there will they would.
The Koran also says
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors (over the Muslims): They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust. [Qur'an 5:51]
What is funny about the "Kafir" status is Muslims usually say "Jews and Christians are "Ok" because they are the people of the book: as if the rest (Hindus, nonbelievers, atheists, ect.. ) were unpure and actually deserved to be treated inhumanely.
Ezra… where have I been an apologist for Arab crimes? Please don't make up bullshit its not helping your argument. I'm against all injustice from genocide in Darfur and The Congo, to lack of freedoms in Iran, and to apartheid and ethnic cleansing in Israel. (and any other place people are suffering unjustly)
Furthermore, you mistranslated the Qur'anic verse. Heres the correct translation.
"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your "ALLIES" and protectors They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for protection) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust. [Qur'an 5:51]
The verse is referring to a specific period of time. The Qur'an, although different in style from the Bible and Torah, still writes about events that occurred amongst the early Muslims and is not completely like the book of Proverbs and Psalms.
2:62 Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Notice how the verse says ANYONE who believes in God and works righteousness shall have their reward as the Qur'an refers to it. It may not be specific to those who don't believe in a God, however, the Qur'an does not condemn them outright to hell and tends to place extra emphasis on good deeds, and does not require one to be a Muslim to obtain "paradise." (Also, historically, the term "Ahle Kitab" or People of the book has been extended to Jainists, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Buddhists by Islamic jurists.)
Anyway, lets get back on topic.
The issue I believe at the beginning is this Ezra:
Hamas:
Hamas is a Palestinian resistance group that abides by an Ikhwan type Islamist idealogy (in opposition to Takfiri groups like Al-Qaeda and the Taliban; in fact Hamas has been the major cockblock to groups like Al-Qaeda gaining a foothold in the Palestinian struggle).
Anyway, while initially calling for the complete destruction of Israel, they have now openly stated that they are willing to accept a solution in which the Palestinians would get a state based on the 1967 borders (this is reflected in their Government Manifesto). HOWEVER, the only thing they are uncompromising on is the right of return to all Palestinian refugee's and believe those refugee's should settle in any part of Israel.
Now, I think both of us can agree, that there is now room for negotiations with Hamas. Yes, the right of return is the elephant in the room, however, just like Israeli politicians continually say that Jerusalem will never be divided and that the Palestinians will not have control of the borders of their future state (much less control over its water and resources nor the ability to have its own military), Hamas politicians are also being just as hardline by demanding that all the refugee's return to Israel proper.
Yes, there are some tough positions but we have to understand that Hamas is a very popular group amongst the Palestinians. Secondly, there position is not so hardline anymore. Thirdly, they have stated they will accept any permanent peace based on the 1967 borders 2 state solution. Finally, they accepted the Arab Peace Initiative, a deal that would give Israel peace with ALL its neighbors in the region including Iran, all Israel has to do is pullback to the 1967 borders and allow the formation of a Palestinian state in the 22% of historic Palestine that comprises the West Bank and Gaza strip.
Yes, there will be trial and tribulations, yes die hards from both sides will try to derail it, however, large segments of the population on both sides are more than happy to accept this peace, meaning that once people on the ground see some results, zealots on both sides will be further marginalized.
However, I have to concede this Ezra, Israel is the dominant power in this conflict, they are also the occupying power, and as such only they can make the first drastic move. I know you understand that completely well.
Arayus,
I don't care for translations from the bible, new testament or the Koran. Since you put a religious tint on your political views, it is no wonder to me why every time you mention Israel it's as if you're speaking of Satan himself. It also explains why you are willing to accept discrimination against minorities in arab and middle eastern countries, saying the jews had it good in arab countries, while if the same laws they lived under were applied to you here in the US you would be screaming bloody murder. Enough with the hypocrisy.
When you sit down and look at what divides us, we are not that far apart ideology. I'm against the settlements. I was for the withdrawal from gaza. I was for the attempted withdrawal from the west bank. Until the rockets from gaza started. Now any peace can't be made by a unilateral withdrawal but by arriving at a deal before a withdrawal along the accords you stated above. Though the right of return is a problematic topic because it basically calls for Israel to commit suicide. In the meantime if people like you make excuses for Hamas rockets in the south the goal of arriving at a peaceful solution inches away. It's the same if you have others justifying settlements. I'll just point out that most of the ardent leftists don't really care about a peaceful solution to the conflict.
Ezra,
I'm glad that we have gotten further away from a shouting match. However, I fail to see where I have put a religious tint in my argumentation. I don't belong to any religious persuasion. However, I have spent a great deal of time working in the Middle East and have become quite familiar with the Islamic religion, its various interpretations, and how it is actually practiced.
Also, I never was an apologist for the rockets that Hamas or other militant groups in the Gaza strip lobbed into southern Israel. However, these rockets pare in comparison to the far more numerous 1-2 ton bombs that Israel has dropped on the strip. Proportionally is a big deal in understanding the conflict. Less than 30 Israelis (including soldiers) have been killed by these rockets in the last 10 years. Meanwhile 1000's of Palestinians have been killed in Israeli bombing campaigns, while 10 of thousands more have been wounded. This is not even including the incredible damage done to the Gazan infrastructure or its economy.
Furthermore, Hamas has stated repeatedly that the rockets are a response to the blockade that was imposed on the strip and the state of occupation that still exists. Israel still controls what goes in and out of the strip, the Gazan airspace, its territorial waters, and many other facets of Gazan life. Under international law this is referred to as a state of siege or occupation.
Yes, Hamas launching rockets is counterproductive as it isint very effective to launch 5-10lb home made unguided rockets against a nuclear armed state. However, their demands were pretty simple: "open up the borders and we will stop." Also, they maintained their end of the deal during the 6month truce. They even arrested members of other militant groups that launched rockets into Israel.
In the end Hamas is a group that can be reasoned with. They changed their founding charter, accepted the two state solution, and have even said that they will end the practice of suicide bombings.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/09/israe...
'The suicide bombings happened in an exceptional period and they have now stopped,' he said. 'They came to an end as a change of belief.' According to a Hamas spokesmen.
At the end of the day, the people that make up Hamas are human just like you and I. Ignoring them, when they represent a good number of Palestinians is a sure fire way to avoid any sort of peace settlement. However, their stance today is not as hard line as it used to be. They accept the 1967 Borders for a permanent peace, this is in accord with the International community. If Hamas can make that giant leap forward, I'm sure even the most militant settlers in Israel can as well.
I agree with most of what you said besides only a few points.
One problem I have with Hamas is that after they won the elections their first attacks were on the border crossings.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976384.html
It makes no sense to attack the crossing you expect shipments to come from.
The second statement i disagree with you was in fact about "the most militanit settlers". These people can't be reasoned with. They are nuts. The main problem is they don't even recognize the palestinians existence. I think the same thing can be said about certain members of Hamas. There are a large number of pragmatic palestinians as you've mentioned. There are also a large number of pragmatic Israelis. Rockets targeting civilians doesn't help. Blind settlers also do not help. Nor does an Israeli government and a palestinian government where most of the members are there because they are either corrupt or have excelled in military duties and their world view is tinted by their past, their eternal quest for "security".
I think you will find that Hamas's reasoning for the attack was that the blockade on the Gaza strip was tightened after they won the elections. But I agree its a retarded policy to engage in violent attacks against someone far stronger than you. Its also retarded, considering that most Israeli's would be willing to come to the negotiation table if they could feel more secure. Futile Hamas attacks do not help that situation one iota.
As for the settlers:
I've actually talked to some of these "militant settlers." I've found that some of them are indeed nuts and would never compromise on anything just like some Palestinians are completely committed to pushing the Jews into the sea.
However, even amongst these circles you will find far more pragmatic voices rather than that of the nutjobs. In the end everyone just wants to eat. I'm fairly confident that the majority of people in the settlements are there because the Israeli government offers huge subsidies to move there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/world/middleeas...
The israeli government are in the same position the u.s were in after 9/11,they are a elected government and have to prove to their electorate they are doing something to combat the problem.After 9/11 president bush had to be seen to be bombing somebody in retaliation,the pin in the map fell on afghanistan,the innocent die in the crossfire in palestine just has they do in afghanistan.But it keeps the voters at home happy when they hear of 3 insurgents/terrorists killed today but little mention is made of the 10 innocents who also died, this isn't what the people back at home want to hear.The isrealis are just the same has all elected governments, people get killed for a few votes,and then they wonder why people want to fight them.
Gaza was the target, false-flag propaganda was used against the Hamas-Gov and ineffectual Qassam Rocket, typical lies used for the purpose to carry out a massacre in Gaza (Breaking Silence soldiers spoke out concerning Zionist-military Rabbi saying it was a 'holy war').
I have data on deaths (Iranian civilian/military due to terrorism) that shows after the Palestinians elected the Hamas-Gov, deaths of Israeli actually dropped, not picking up again until afler the Israel Occupying Forces went into Gaza and killed 6-Palestinians that were said "digging a tunnel to take Israeli soldiers hostage."
The Zionists according to (year-1918) map presented to the Paris Peace Commission were claiming all of Palestine including part of Arab States of that time. The three Zionist paramilitary after the 1939 British "White Papers" limited a State of Israel to a coastal-plain, and this began the Zionist paramilitary attacking British also (see my webpage).
Good article, and I’ve certainty enjoyed reading Arayus’ comments and facts, good job.