The Comment Factory

Key:

MK: Matt Kennard; ACA: Ana Caistor-Arendar; MBS: Ambassador Maria Beatriz Souviron

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MK: Can you talk a bit about what you were doing before you were ambassador?

MBS: I’ve been working before in the development area, especially in social development in my country. In my last post before I came here I was coordinating a programme on risk management, which dealt with the climate change issue and the risk the country faces from natural disasters.

MK: Can you talk a bit about what happened in Copenhagen?

MBS: Yes of course, I think it’s the worst result we could have expected because it’s not only that there is not an agreement, it is not a binding agreement – as we had with the Kyoto Protocol in which the developing nations had a commitment, and a duty, in my point of view, to reduce their carbon emissions and now they have a compromise but not an obligation.

MK: Whose fault do you think it is that there is no binding agreement?

MBS: I think that there is no political or economic will from the developing nations to do it. There are so many factors that are affecting that decision. With the financial crisis and so on it is certainly more difficult to compromise, especially in the US, a cut in emissions. And of course we are out of time, in my point of view, in order to reduce the temperatures or to keep it below two degrees. We will see what happens next year but I am not very optimistic after all this.

MK: I was going to ask you about the speeches that Chavez and Morales made at Copenhagen because they spent a lot of time talking about capitalism being at the root of the problem. Would you say that the Bolivian government now is an anti-capitalist government or is it working within capitalism and doing social projects alongside? What is the ideology?

MBS: I don’t think it is an ideological problem actually. They are talking about a system that accumulates sometimes in spite of the others. This is the criticism, not for the capitalist system as such. President Morales talks always about ‘living well’ – he means to live in harmony with nature, not in spite of nature, and we are creating a mess in this world and we are seeing the consequences of that. I don’t think it is an ideological problem.

ACA: I think one of your points (to MK) is probably broader than the climate issue itself in that a lot of President Morales’ rhetoric is anti-capitalist but at the same time he is working within a capitalist system and even Vice President Liñera has talked about creating a new Andean capitalism. Isn’t there a contradiction in that rhetoric?

MBS: The thing is for me in my point of view is that you cannot take an ideological view on this issue. The process in Bolivia is a very particular process, it is a process of integration between the society, the indigenous people, the white people, the people who have been ruling the country for a long time. And this makes a big difference actually, not only within the state, it’s not about how you manage a state or a system it is how you manage change in an entire society where exclusion was present for a long, long time. For me, every system that goes against the poor will damage mankind. And an exacerbated capitalism will damage any system. For me it is not ideological, for me there are practical reasons for doing what we do.

MK: Can you talk about the influence of the US in Bolivia. President Morales kicked out the ambassador and there have been rumours that they were trying to pay people to assassinate him, do you still see the US as a threat to Bolivian democracy?

MBS: Actually the US ambassador before Morales had a lot of influence over the politics in our country. Even pushing to take domestic decisions at some points. We want some sovereignty in our country and to make our own decisions. And of course the former ambassador (Goldberg) was involved with the opposition. He was requesting meetings with the President at 5am in the morning! I am not going to request a meeting with the mayor of London at 5am in the morning!

MK: That is what happened right? He requested a meeting at 5am?

MBS: Yes, yes, yes.

ACA: I was wondering about UK-Bolivia relations, is it a similar relationship?

MBS: I hope not. I don’t see an intrusion actually. There are some statements that the ambassador of the UK made regarding the terrorist issue, but after that in the press he said that it was a personal opinion and not the opinion of the Foreign office or the state.

MK: Do you still feel that there is a threat? Although they’ve kicked out the ambassador do you still feel that the US present a threat to democracy in the country?

MBS: It is a very sensitive issue to give an opinion on, but there is a concern in my government concerning the intervention of the US. That is why ambassador Goldberg was invited to leave the country.

ACA: And that is not a situation that you see improving now with the new Obama administration?

MBS: Yes, we’ve initiated diplomatic talking, and if they are willing to respect the rules in our country then we can have a new bilateral relationship, but under the diplomatic rules, respecting the sovereignty of both countries.

MK: What is the attitude to arming the indigenous communities? Because I saw that a few of the indigenous communities had been training in self-defence because there are obviously fascist militias in the east and in Latin American history Salvador Allende refused to  arm the people and General Pinochet was able to take over. Do you think that by arming the indigenous population the government can protect against future coup attempts?

MBS: No I don’t think so. The people in my country are very pacific. But of course if we have to save the country against another coup, I’m sure the people would react at some point. I don’t think the government is arming anybody. You have to understand that the indigenous people in my country have won certain rights and there is no step back from that. Imagine people being limited in their development and one day they realise that they can be ministers, presidents, it marks a very big change in the self-esteem of the people, in the ownership of the people within the country.

The new constitution has recognised all indigenous rights and ethnicities within the constitution. So these people are now part of the country, people who had been ignored for quite a long time. When people win those rights, there is no step back. And it is not a case of arming the people in order to react in the face of a coup d’etat. We don’t feel threatened actually by threats of a coup – it has been threatened to have a civil coup d’etat with the ambush of the indigenous people in September last year in Pando, but we’re trying to solve that through the pacific route, through the justice system, following the laws and the rules, not through a violent reaction.

ACA: Can I ask you a point about the justice system. The new constitution established indigenous justice alongside the established justice system. That has received quite a lot of criticism, especially from the writings that have emerged from the UK and US, they have questioned how you can have two forms of justice functioning in one country, which one would rule above the other? One must override the other? Can you talk a bit about that?

MBS: I am not an expert on laws but this is a way of recognising the ways the indigenous communities work with the law.

ACA: I know that recently there have been an increase in the number of public lynchings and one of the fears is that these lynchings are taking place because people feel they can take the laws in their own hands.

MBS: No, no, no. There are laws that should be obeyed. The people who lynch others are being dealt with by the police, it doesn’t mean that anybody can take the justice into their own hands. The thing is we recognise the ways of organisation within the indigenous communities. Of course we have to work in order to compatibilise both systems, which is a recognition of how they organise themselves.

MK: You were saying that this is an irreversible change, that indigenous groups have become part of society and are now aware of their rights and the society they belong to. A lot of people look to Bolivia as a place were indigenous organisation has been very successful. Can you tell us about the history of the movement and where it started, what has made it so successful? It has happened in Venezuela but not to the same degree. What factors have been at play in Bolivia that have made the indigenous movement so successful (ACA interrupts: And for example it hasn’t happened in other Latin American countries with large indigenous populations like Peru or Guatemala.) So what factors do you think have made Bolivia such a success in this regard and how can it be copied?

MBS: There are many factors that have influenced that. For me the traditional political system has been broken due to lack of transparency. They didn’t have the capability to meet the public wants and the need to integrate the people wasn’t met.

Since 2002 onwards, we lived through a period of very bad political instability. We had four presidents in two years between 2003-2005 – and this traditional political platform wasn’t able to reinvent itself in order to cope with the new national and social needs. And of course at that point the communities of indigenous people had been forgotten, and at that point they began to recognise leaders such as Evo Morales. People identified with him. I admire him so much, because for me, he is a true story of success. Coming from a level of society where it was practically impossible to get into the political arena and he did it! He managed to get people to join efforts in order to claim the rights of the people. Not only in the Western side of the country, people in the Eastern side, in Pando and Beni, recognised him as a leader as well. So, for me, the factors have been him as a leader… (MK Interrupts)

MK: What about Cochabamba? Was that a big moment?

MBS: Yes, as well, the Water Wars, the problems with privatization, they were all questioned at that point. There were a lot of factors that influenced that. And of course as a result we have a new politics in Bolivia, the process of change in our society, which in my point of view is for the good of the country. This process take time, you will not solve this thing in three or four years or in one administration of government. But the basis has been set now in order to go on with that. We need to create a new political platform that can answer to the people, and we need new leaders to be involved in this.

MK: Are there lots of young leaders who are like Evo Morales? Who have the same sort of passion?

MBS: Yes! He changed their lives actually. I heard the VP tell this story last time I was in the country: President Morales asked a seven year old boy in a school what he wanted to be when he grew up, the boy replied ‘I want to be president like you’, so can you imagine the difference that has taken place!

ACA: Can I ask you a question about the new constitution. President Morales has said that one of the first things his new administration will do is implement the new constitution. One of the issues that was not entirely dealt with is the issue of the secession of Santa Cruz and other departments in the east. Could you talk a bit about what might happen if calls for secession continue, how will they be appeased?

MBS: I don’t think there will be more calls for autonomy. President Morales has won the elections by ten per cent more than his first mandate. He won in some parts of Santa Cruz as well. The thing is, even the local organisations in Santa Cruz have realised as well, that there is no point in trying to divide the country and there is no point trying to keep Santa Cruz separate from the country. For me it is about the former leaders who weren’t able to present a national political programme for the country so began calls for autonomy and local control. We need national leaders, we need people who want to create a country, a nation, not just a locality. Not those who want development in a few regions in spite of the others. What President Morales is trying to do is that, he is trying to strike a balance to create that.

MK: Does Morales see his job as spreading what is happening in Bolivia to other countries because I know that Chavez’s foreign policy is quite active. He sees it as a Latin America wide movement and that everyone should be involved, does Morales want to stir up the indigenous movements in Peru and other Latin American countries or does he just focus on Bolivia?

MBS: No, he just focuses on Bolivia. He became a world leader for all the indigenous people. He is a world leader for the people of Guatemala, Peru or wherever you have an indigenous community – even in the north of Norway you have an indigenous communities that are very keen to meet him. Of course this process is an example for the rest of the world because it is a revolution in a pacific way. Even though we have had some violent moments, like in Pando, this process has the capability to make huge change without creating a war – so for me this is an example for the rest of the world.

ACA: How does Bolivia defend itself against criticism of its increased trade relations with Iran? I know that the US and the UK have criticised Bolivia quite heavily for this.

MBS: First of all for me it is a sovereign decision. Here is the UK you have relations with Iran. There is a mission here that is still ongoing, both countries have a bilateral relationship, as far as I know with the US as well, so what is the problem with Bolivia? Why the criticism? Why not criticise Brazil? The president of Iran visited Brazil as well. If they offer us investments, why not? If they offer us better conditions than the UK and the US why not?

I’m pretty sure President Morales does not agree with terror or violence, but we don’t get involved with what’s going on on one side or the other. And we are not going to get involved in the same things just because we have a bilateral relationship. The bilateral relationship with Iran in my country is new, it does not have more than one or two years. But we are opening to everybody. It doesn’t mean that we agree with everybody.

MK: But that is not technically true because you kicked out the Israeli ambassador during the Gaza offensive which was a moral move, and that proves that Bolivia does have a foreign policy.

MBS: We do have a foreign policy but Bolivia did not have an ambassador in Israel at that point. He (Morales) is looking for the human rights and looking out for the rights of the people in the Gaza strip.

ACA: Can I ask you what we should expect from the next five years of a Morales administration?

MBS: I expect the process of change to be settled, the change that is taking place in the whole country will continue. I am happy about that because when I see my indigenous people going around the world, learning and looking at other things, it makes me very happy. My people are very good people, very pacific, if you have been to Bolivia you will have seen that.

MK: In terms of your job as UK ambassador, what reaction do you get from people when you say that you are part of the Morales government? Are people generally enthusiastic?

MBS: I think we have to thank and recognise that my president has put Bolivia on the face of the world. Before we didn’t even exist, people didn’t know where we were placed, if it was in Africa, Asia or wherever – now people know Bolivia because of President Morales – he put Bolivia in the face of the world.