George Galloway’s ban from entering Canada is a travesty that we will fight
Anti-war politician George Galloway was banned from Canada last week because the Conservative government said he supported Hamas. But they have no problem with letting in supporters of Israel who have inflicted many more terrorist murders. Canadians are up in arms at their government’s disregard for basic principles of free speech and they must vent their anger
By Johan Boyden on Monday, March 23rd, 2009 - 875 words.
On one side of Canada was a man who, for my generation, personifies the great evil of the US empire. On March 17 he was warmly welcomed to Calgary by the governing Harper Conservatives. From outside the $400-plate luncheon of business and oil executives over two hundred protesters chanted, expressing the sentiments of the Canadian people.
On the other side of the country well over a thousand people – in Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal – had pulled $10 out of their wallets to hear an outspoken anti-war crusader. On March 20, this man was banned from entering Canada for posing a threat to national security.
The first case is former President George W Bush. If what resonates with the Canadian people resonated with Ottawa, then the clarion call contained in the Lawyer’s Against the War’s letter to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would have been heard. Bush would have been arrested for crimes against humanity and war crimes.
He was not.
The second case is rebel British MP George Galloway, a mighty and eloquent speaker. Galloway, who left Britain’s Labour party in 2003 and now sits as a left-wing Respect MP, has hurled repeated puissant barrages of verbal criticism against the oppression and injustice of US, Israeli, British, and Canadian foreign policy. His censorship has scandalized Canadians.
Will public sentiment resonate with the Canadian government this time?
Galloway is the man who famously crossed the Atlantic to a US Senate hearing that had falsely accused him of crookedness in the UN Oil for Food program. If you don’t know his name, search it together with “senate hearing” on You Tube and hear this speech in full, where he says:
“I gave my political life’s-blood to try to stop the mass killing of Iraqi’s by the sanctions on Iraq, which killed a million Iraqis. Most of whom were children. Most of them died before they even knew that they were Iraqis…. I gave my heart and soul to stop you committing the disaster which you did committee in Iraq. And I told the world that your case for the war was a pack of lies… Senator, in everything I said, about Iraq, I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong. And a hundred thousand people have paid with their lives, sixteen hundred of them American soldiers, sent to their deaths, on a pack of lies.”
He whipped that Senate hearing like a cur.
Galloway has been to Canada before. In 2006, he told CBC’s George Stroumboulopoulos “that your foreign policy has changed markedly even in the twelve months or so since I was last here, it has a sharper, uglier edge. I don’t understand why you are doing this.”
Apparently the Harper Conservative government can not handle such criticism.
It was entirely appropriate that an emergency planning session responding to Galloway’s ban came at the end of a three day anti-war conference of students from across Canada in Toronto – a meeting talking about increasingly aggressive military recruitment campaigns, the carbon footprint of NATO, and building on campuses the international April 4 mobilization.
That meeting heard numerous reports of similar clamp-downs on freedom of speech. High school teachers and students with the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid spoke of the heavy-handed approach of the Toronto School Board and university administrations (reported in the last issue of Peoples Voice). The war resistors have seen four resistors and young families deported. The Canadian Arab Federation’s funding is being cut not because of any action, but a political statement.
Each time the problem came back to the Harper government and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney.
“We have to funnel the outrage of the Canadian public towards Harper,” Toronto Coalition to Stop the War spokesperson James Clark told the meeting. The group will launch a legal challenge against Galloway’s ban on Tuesday led by Barbara Jackman. If that doesn’t work a delegation of Canadian MPs, lawyers and activists will escort Galloway across the Canadian border.
The government claims Galloway has raised money for Hamas and therefore terrorism. Not reported is that most of what Hamas does is running schools and hospitals and now the infrastructure of Gaza. And of course, lots of people in Canada are raising money for Israel – which bombs civilians, a terrorist act. The Jewish Defence League, a Zionist organization banned and forced to operate under a different name in the United States, faces no hindrances in Canada.
The burning issue here is freedom of speech – even Liberal leader Micheal Ignatieff gets that.
Galloway joins a growing list of progressives not allowed into Canada – from US women’s peace activists with Code Pink to William Ayers, anti-war folk musician David Rovics, and hip hop artist Immortal technique. Nor were they the first.
As Galloway himself said:
“More than half a century ago Paul Robeson [African-American layer, athlete, singer, activist, and Communist], one of the greatest men who ever lived, was forbidden to enter Canada not by Ottawa but by Washington, which had taken away his passport. But he was still able to transfix a vast crowd of Vancouver’s mill hands and miners with a 17-minute telephone concert, culminating in a rendition of the Ballad of Joe Hill. Technology has moved on since then. And so from coast to coast, minister Kenney notwithstanding, I will be heard – one way or another.”
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I am a Canadian living in Great Britain where George Galloway is well known. To deny him entry to Canada on the grounds of National Security is both ludicrous and alarming. I believe he is being gagged because he is openly critical of Israel's aggression against the Palestinian people. Well done for highlighting this.
I wish people would read more then the headlines and follow more then the pictures. Galloway is being denied entry because he purposefully profits from blurring the distinction between radical and normal criticism of israel, he encourages anti-semetism, openly justifying jihad and a military repsonse by upset iraqis and afghanis living in all parts of the world. This isnt a question of freedom of speech, thousands/ millions of people who oppose isreal/bush are allowed into Canda weekly… DO THE RESEARCH He is CORRUPT, ON THE PAYROLL AND JEW HATING populist/ donation seeking opportunist.
George Galloway does not encourage anti-semetism. He is openly critical of Israel. Being critical of Israel is not anti-semitic. He has just returned from taking aid to the poor people of Gaza who have suffered the most horrific military aggression by their occupiers while the whole world stood by. He is not Jew hating and he is not corrupt. Stop using smokescreens. Israel has fooled a few people for a while with the "self -defense" ploy and when this does not totally block criticism they scream anti-semitism. Wake up the world is getting tired of this. If I openly criticize the murder of innocent children by the IDF- this has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler or the Holocaust or being an anti semite I am simply saying that there is no excuse for incinerating civilians with white phosphorous. Try to justify this if you will – but leave what happened over 65 years out of it. The Jews do not have a monopoly on suffering and they are certainly not suffering now. The poor people of Palestine are suffering now and courageous people such as George Galloway who are prepared to be smeared in the name of decency and truth are in a minority.
I’m with you angela, galloway has never said anything anti semitic.. This is just a tool to try and shut him and others down and make people nervous about criticizing the HUGE and continuing terrorist crimes of Israel. The people who have used antisemitism as an ideological tool have cheapened the term so much now that it is hard to ever know when it is used legitimately.
The pathetic attempt by Harper's reactionary Citizenship and Immigration minister, Jason Kenney to muzzle George Galloway is misinformed, if not downright stupid. The government's bully tactics will ultimately, only serve to further publicize and strenghten Mr. Galloway's position against the war in Afghanistan and the attacks on Gaza. In pandering to a handful of right wing extremists groups, the government has revealed it's contempt for the principles of democracy and free speech. They do not represent the interests of average Canadians and they are unsuitable to govern this country.
canada should welcome the chance to hear him – a bit of sanity is rare on the ground just now.
Let the guy come to Canada….as long as he comes to Vancouver so the Mounties can give him a Tazer Welcome!!!!
He's personally given terrorists money. Are you guys insane? Wow, the western world is going to be destroyed soon with attitudes like yours. Terrorists aren't even a threat in your minds anymore. Unbelievable.
Yeah destroying the Western world by trying to uphold freedom of speech… Good one
This is just the beginning. Pretty soon big brother(JDL) will lobby for the destruction of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms based on it's imcompatibility with Zionism.
What about the Canadian media? Aren't they jumping on this or is it the same corporate farce they've got down south?
Good luck with the legal action. The escort would be a stunning and inspirational act. Needless to say, if you guys do carry it out try making sure the global lenses are on it.
While denying entry to George Galloway is certainly an attack on free speech, the purpose of his trip must be analyzed. George Galloway has recently visited the Gaza strip where he openly embraced the leaders of Hamas, an organization which canada has deemed to be terrorist. This is the same organization which openly calls for the murder of all jews and propagates the fabrication "Protocols of the Elders of ZIon" in its media and amongst its supporters. Some of the same "conspiracy" concepts can be found in some of the comments above.
Canada has every right to question his entry. Nonetheless, he should have been allowed entry and his ideas and values openly debated.
The Washington Post(Feb 26,2002)
"We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody."
—Ismail Haniyeh (Senior Leader of Hamas)
Canada allows people who openly embrace the officials of the Israeli government, an organization which common sense and awareness have deemed to be terrorist. This is the same organization which covertly calls for the murder of all Palestinians and propagates the fabrication "Israel wants peace, a Palestinian state, and it acts only in self-defense" in its media and amongst its supporters. All of the same propaganda can be found in every major media outlet in North America.
Apparently you don't ever listen to what hamas tells its own people. Here is Khaled Mashal the true leader of Hamas and other hamas leaderrs in their own words to their people. It is common for leaders in the muslim world to say one thing to western media and openly say another to their own people and their media. They do NOT do this covertly and this has been recorded.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&...
When you make the ignorant comment of grouping the american media and asking me if i understand something about it you show your lack of knowledge on the subject. The media in america is diverse, you have anarchist newspapers to leftist shows like democracy now and jim lehrer all the way to fox news and other media outlets on the right. Do not group american media into one entity and pass judgement. I try to listen to all of them to get a broad picture, including french, english, arab and israeli media outlets.
As for Norman Finklestein. I have actually heard him give a lecture live. After hearing his lecture i understood why the man could not hold a job in any university he applied for. Most recently De-Paul. Also, citing the fact that he is jewish does not give him credibility, which you seem to think it does.
Antisemitism was a term coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1873 of germany specifically in order to stop people from hating jews for religion reasons and to start hating them for ethnic reasons. What you are doing is just playing with semantics. You know exactly what the term refers to but you say it can't mean what it means because another group is semitic as well. If you don't like the word pick another i don't care, but we both know what we are talking about. Also, I never said a word about antisemitism in any of my comments below so i wonder why you bring it up.
I do know Benjamin Netanyahu has said he is against a two state solution. I never said the rightwing of israel was the best solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Israel has not banned arabs from standing in the elections, which you claim, as is apparent from the many arab parties and arabs in them that were elected in the recent elections. There was an attempt by a few right wing parties to ban anti-israel parties which most of them happened to be arab. The attempt was was appealed by the supreme court. Your attempt at disinformation is pathetic.
In regards to the reports of abuses which were mostly hearsay –
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/world/middleeas...
and if there were israeli soldiers who committed murder they should be tried and convicted, as were american soldiers who went on a shooting rampage in Iraq. Though if you had bothered to read the Haaretz article you would have come to the conclusion that the death of the woman was a mistake for taking a wrong turn in a time of war. There was no mention of a deliberate homicide as depicted in other media outlets who had the audacity to make false claims while at the same time sourcing the haaretz article
Somethings wrong with intense debate. It's not accepting long text. I posted my reply in parts at the bottom.
It looks like the beginning of the end for the JDL. I was shocked by the statements of the JDL spokesperson regarding looking into churches and citizens who were going to hear GG's message. The JDL is not an official government organization, it is just a special interest group with no authority or power beyond its ability to lobby support. The very idea that it would look into or spy on citizens is absurd and their spokesperson's vitriolic content was an affront to Canadian civil liberties.
I guess the writing is finally on the wall for the Canadian neo-cons so they are pulling out all the stops to prevent their supporter from losing office.
Completely agree Muntasir.. It’s all upside down, war is peace, israel is the victim, anyone who supports the Palestinians is antisemitic blah blah blah… I wonder what orwell would say now
Mutasir? Who's common sense?
Why give me an unreferenced remark purportedly linked to Haniyeh. Hamas in its charter defines the enemy primarily in terms of antisemitic conspiracy theories of world Jewish domination. It incites hatred in their children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tneSE6nJiLw
As i stated above you believe in the most malice conspiracy theories used against jews and Israelis. You use those theories to make your point. "Covertly calls for the murder of all Palestinians"?
Nonetheless, this argument is about whether Gallawoy should be allowed into Canada which i think he should be.
To respond to MattK. I never said that Israel was the victim. I think both sides are victims of religious and nationalistic stupidities.
What would Orwell would say?
"What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?"
Just to clarify my point in what i mean by unreferenced remark i will use another Orwell quote —
"Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper."
– Orwell
If you have a linked video showing Haneyia making these claims i'll consider your argument
You want a reference? That's rich. Well at least it sounds like you'd believe the truth if shown the way to it.
The Washington Post article-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti...
If you have any idea about American media and politics, you'd understand that this or any other mainstream newspaper has no benefit in fabricating something that makes Hamas sound good.
Still, here's something similar from an Israeli newspaper:-
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
It's a shame you quote Orwell with such vehemence, and yet make yourself a victim of ignorance.
By its very definition "Semitic" refers to the whole Middle-East (Arabs included).
The term "Anti-Semitic" is today's most misused and exploited phrase next to "terrorism".
Here's a Jewish man who can tell you the truth about it—http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
And maybe you didn't see the massacre Israel implemented in January, because Israel shut out the entire western world.
Here's a very brief visual summary:-
http://www.thecommentfactory.com/world-without-co...
You do know that Benjamin Netanyahu, incoming Israeli Prime Minister, has openly been against a two-state solution(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067553.html)...
Also that Israel banned Israeli Arabs from standing in the election (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054903.html) plus the fact that several IDF soldiers have admitted to Israel's recent war crimes in Gaza(http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/64518.html).
And of course there's the tonnes of reports from human rights groups from just about everywhere: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009...
I can give you countless credible articles and videos if you're prepared to digest them.
Just one last thing you need to understand—Judaism and Zionism are two completely separate philosophies.
I WISH THERE WERE MORE GEORGE GALLOWAYS IN THIS WORLD
At John Forthright
*I read the first article. Nowhere did it say what you claimed. Moreover, the word "Jew" or "Jewish" wasn't even there. It mentioned "war with the Zionist enemy". I repeat, modern Zionism is a racist ideology which has no relation to Judaism. And leaders of Hamas understand that. Iran, a place where Jewish citizens live in peace(contrary to popular views), have the same stance.
*The American media should be very diverse as a result of the diverse population. But check the actual public airwaves. 6 Corporations own 90% of all media outlets(both news and entertainment).
*You see media diversity to mean varying commentators on domestic policy. When it comes to foreign policy, there is no such thing. It's one unilateral forceful voice pushing down on the American people in support of the government. [Excluding the media which don't have large viewership]
*So you judged Finkelstein's actual thoughts solely on his oratory skills. Try actually reading his work, which though criticized heavily has not yet been attacked for having any factual faults. And I said "Jewish" because so often people in the US can't seem to get past the very thought or accusation of someone being "anti-semitic", and therefore refuse to give the person any credibility regardless of his actual reasoning. And ad hominem arguments are of course a hallmark of the corporate media.
*You said Hamas "calls for the murder of all Jews" by which I assumed you meant in terms of your vernacular-"anti semitic".
*On the point of Israeli rightwing.This whole right-left business is non-sense with regards to foreign policy everywhere in the world.The language changes as left wingers are more diplomatic and nuanced in speech, but that's about it.
*With regards to the election, if you consider people who support a two-state solution anti-Israeli then I don't know if I should be debating with you. Yes, I made one mistake in that I was not aware that the supreme court's decision was upheld. Because when the supreme court told the government to allow journalists into Gaza during the war, it did not listen.
*You just pointed me to a New York Times article. One of the most appropriate examples of corporate hegemony over free thought.The information it recieves are fed through the wire to over 500 smaller newsagencies of the "diverse US media".
First of all it's a Zionist owned corporation. Via this first point its credibility regarding the topic in discussion should crumble.Secondly it was not there during the massacre in Gaza, just like the rest of the western media.
Thirdly, you have no idea about the sheer atrocity that went on during that massacre. There's a policy in the US media of sanitizing images of violence, it happened even during 9/11. People there can only take gore when its in the movie theaters. But the rest of us saw the images. The eye witness accounts from ordinary Palestinians. The reports from UNHCR, Human Rights Watch, B'TSelem, and a myriad of other human rights groups.
There were countless stories that would make any civilized person cry. The IDF chose to concoct one for themselves and subsequently justify it to appease its supporters. But even it's own soldiers are now beginning to make confessions. Statements that are being investigated ONLY by the IDF itself, and not by independent authorities.
Once again, you seem like a somewhat open-minded person. Here's a forty minute documentary about the war if you're interested.
<a style="cursor: pointer;" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UChWtlMGBJ0&feature=channel_page" target="_blank"><a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UChWtlMGBJ0&fe…” target=”_blank”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UChWtlMGBJ0&fe…
It's by Al-Jazeera English the only global broadcaster present in Gaza at the time. No, it's not a terrorist channel. It is an extremely objective agency that focuses on content not entertainment value. It's widely
unavailable in the US due to protests by citizens.
You can view the channel at <a style="cursor: pointer;" href="http://www.livestation.com" target="_blank"><a href=”http://www.livestation.com” target=”_blank”>www.livestation.com
Don't take my word for it. Give it a shot for one month(3 or 4 days a week).
And a short 10 minute round up of the US media landscape by The Listening Post, which is a very savvy media analyst and a must watch source on global news.
<a style="cursor: pointer;" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxLzApE1-A&feature=related" target="_blank"><a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxLzApE1-A&fe…” target=”_blank”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxLzApE1-A&fe…
Thank you i know and watch Al Jazeera regularly especially Al-Jazeera Magazine which has a section "Conspiracy Theories". Like i said i try to read and watch all news media outlets French, arabic, english. It's interesting that with google translate you can now read Al Jazeera in arabic which is different that the english version. Here is a link to al jazeera magazine –
http://aljazeera.com/
Are you also actually trying to make the point that there is less free media in the US than in arab countries?
Let me start by Finklestein. I did not say his oratory skills were bad, they aren't. What i noticed is his tactic of giving half truths and twisting events in history. I'll give you one example. When speaking of the 67 war between israel and egypt, which i have read about. He gave only one reason to the audience for the preemptive strike – the blockade of the straits of tiran. He left out the fact that egypt had ordered UN troops out of sinai and began to amass troops and tanks along the israeli border. Now, That's an important fact, and certainly a casus belli. The talk was filled with such half truths. Like i said, after the talk i realized why he could not hold a job at any decent university.
I don't get you? You quote an Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, the same newspaper that the whole world quoted in regards to the abuses reports. I assume you think Haaretz is zionist as well. You speak of jews in iran which i assume you got from Roger Cohen's article – "Jews in Iran" from the New York Times. But when i send you an article which does not fit your world view you pull out the conspiracy theory card that the New York Times is "Zionist", which you mean to say is Jewish owned, after quoting all the same newspapers. Are you insane?
I said Hamas calls for the murder of jews and i meant it. I have seen the programs they show their children, long before gaza, and they say jews – el yehud in arabic, almost in all cases when attacking israel. The programs are wide spread on youtube.
I am for a two state solution. I currently believe that there is too much animosity between the people due to media that it will be difficult to resolve anything. Nuke 'em all is sort of my attitude. Nato forces should go in – kick the settlers out of the west bank, overthrow hamas. Have elections only with democratic parties which hamas is not. Give an enormous amount of money to the refugees in reparations. Treat both sides like babies which they are.
In regards to the Sheer atrocity. Lets look at the numbers- Hamas and Israel.
Israel IDF says 1,166 were killed. The Palestinian centre for human rights (PCHR) say 1,417 were killed. The first discrepancy between the numbers can be accounted for the political and natural deaths in gaza. You now have the difference of the IDF stating it killed 709 militants while (PCHR) claiming 491 militants killed. The difference is the first strike that occured which killed around 200 Hamas policemen, which PCHR does not consider to be militants. Take Israel's version that they are militants which i agree can be debated, you are left with 295 non militants dead. Every death of a civilian is a travesty but when you compare this to how arabs have dealt with the palestinians in the past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_J...
Or even Nato caused casualties in afghanastan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_...
Israel relative to other nations did not have as high civilian casualty – militant ratio.
It beckons the question what is different here. I would assume "Zionists". The arabs have a unique way of ignoring much greater arab on arab atrocities as are occuring in Sudan and Iraq as we speak. Which, for me, makes it hard to take them seriously.
An example of an Ad Hominem attack —
"Thirdly, you have no idea about the sheer atrocity that went on during that massacre. There's a policy in the US media of sanitizing images of violence, it happened even during 9/11. People there can only take gore when its in the movie theaters." — Muntasir
Look at the numbers. Is war fought by israelis or "Zionists" and deaths that are an outcome of that war any more atrocious than battles in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan (Swat Valley) and darfur?
Al-Jazeera English has established itself as a completely different entity from the Arabic network. The two networks don't even call reporters from the other side in case they are missing a reporter in any region, or if someone has special perspective.
Al-Jazeera English may have Arabic name and funding, but it is a global media company. Many of the journalists maybe of Arab ancestry but they've already worked in large western institutions (the reason for their move is usually cited as being given greater journalistic freedom).
About Al-Jazeera Arabic, which has been wrongly labeled as a terrorist channel by many in the US government, it is one of the only voices in the middle east that criticizes Arab dictatorships and governments. I did not say media is less free in the US than the Arab world. I emphasized "foreign policy" in which the media is just rubbish when one pictures what it should be in a country like the US.
And having a diverse media doesn't matter when the majority of people go to the few ruling broadcasters. Plus there is too much focus on entertainment in the mainstream US press.
All of the Israeli media aren't the same. Most of them are strict a nationalistic bunch which treats "foreign policy" discussions much like FOX and MSNBC.
Haaretz on the other hand is much more objective. I've seen interviews of the editor, and have read articles. They treat both sides of the story with honesty, and don't back off from criticizing the Israeli government's tactics in the occupied territories. Therefore, I don't regard Haaretz as a blind zionist paper in the sense of mainstream zionism.
I did not get the condition of Jewish citizens in Iran from a New York Times article. Your assumption makes me think that your talk of subscribing to a wide array of media voices is hot air . I got my info from watching an on the ground interview of a Jewish citizen there, plus an interview of an American Rabbi who had returned from a visit to Iran with his fellow Rabbis.
And you won't understand me,because you don't understand the night and day difference between Zionism and Judaism. Judaism is a faith. Zionism is the same thing as the South African apartheid.
There's a great paradox.
From a theological perspective, Judaism says that the Jewish people should not have a state of their own until the coming of the messiah. Not that I am saying Israel should be dissolved. Another example, in 1947 the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Yosef Dushinsky, wrote many letters to the UN saying "we do not want to be included in the state of Israel".
So I did mean what I said. "Zionist owned", NOT "Jewish owned".
Hamas has many moving parts. Of course their videos are widespread on youtube to the delight of people like you. If people grow up in an environment such as the one that has been existing in Gaza, long before the massacre, who'd blame them. And I've just seen some of them. It talks of going to war against Israelis because they killed children and grand fathers. There's no way to make you understand the context if you do not watch the videos I gave you or documentaries like "Occupation 101". You're reacting like some American kids in Texas where shown a cartoon saying "kill the arabs".
Plus if you want to bring in such arguments, I ask you why you don't cringe at the inhumanity of the IDF. But no you haven't seen any of the videos I gave you the links to. Out of fear or some sort of lame assumption. What about Israelis saying "kill the arabs". Watching in delight when Gaza got bombed. Guess it doesn't count cause it's not on Youtube. When their soldiers confess that "in Gaza we're allowed to do anything", and talk about the booklets containing writings from extremist Rabbis which say "it is a holy cause to kill Muslims". When fresh graduates of the IDF wear t-shirts containing cartoons depicting the joy of murdering a pregnant Arab women(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7960071.st...
An ordinary American who got enlightened— http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOvlYQvRYFE&fe...
Please don't start with the numbers. I can't help saying this, but you sound like an utter moron when you try to bring down the numbers through some bizarre logic. I'm supposed to believe what the IDF said? Monsters who used white phosphorus(illegal in any combat situation) in an area like Gaza. You wanna do math. 1.5 million people(half of them children) stuck in 139 square miles, blockaded from all sides with no escape. Drop a bomb any kind(just one, not the hundreds by Israel in January)…..what do you think happens genius? Wait, don't tell me, Israel uses magic bombs that only kill evil people right?
The Gaza massacre is unique from other war scenarios because of the immediately prior history, size location, blockades, etc. It was like the IDF went to hunt in their self-run zoo. Policemen are civil servants. You take them out you destroy order in a society. You allow more rockets to be launched by distressed angry people. And the policemen they killed were taking part in their graduation ceremony.
For your understanding, I'm not an Arab. Arab governments are BS. They have a unique way of ignoring pretty much everything, and they do not speak for their people. And that is why the US considers them good buddies. Who does the US dislike?…Democratically elected governments such as Iran and Hamas.
You didn't have a reply for the what the multitude of Human Rights groups have reported about Gaza. You didn't watch the videos. If you did, and are still bringing up the arguments about numbers then you're one sick person.
I was wrong, you're not an open minded person. You're one of those people who claim to be so by having slightly wider boundaries to personally acceptable ideas. Boundaries which seem much wider than those of the people around you. Consequently a false notion is created since you feel you are easily able to traverse the lefts and rights of the box. But ultimately you can't get out of that box.
Why you think jews, bahais and other religions are free under the bigoted and discriminatory Sharia law in Iran is beyond me, and when you say –
"I got my info from watching an on the ground interview of a Jewish citizen there"
What exactly do you think a jew in Iran is going to say? Jews and Bahais have been hanged and targeted in Iran. Currently there is an american/Iranian journalist in jail that secretary of state Hillary Clinton is lobbying for her release. What crime did she commit? What crime did the other Bahai's that are in jail commit?
Please explain to me what zionism is because you know much better than israeli friends of mine.
When you say Judiasm is a faith and depict it only as such you are dead wrong and contradict yourself in previous arguments. Judiasm is a faith, culture and people. For example you said Norman Finklestein is Jewish but i was under the assumption that he was atheist or nonreligious. He is certainly not an observant jew, then why is he jewish?
Personally, i don't care about theological perspectives, there are a wide number of interpretations for any religion. In the case of ultra orthodox jews who do not believe in Israel (who are a small minority). You have to understand WHY they don't believe in jewish self determination. The only reason is the insane belief that the messiah will come before the state of Israel is formed. This small minority of jews are clear nutcases.
Zionism is like aparthied? Is that why in israel there are arabs in parliament? Is that why black ethiopians serve in the top army units in the israeli army? Is that why there is a Druze pilot and druze parliament members? Is that why in 1948 Israel accepted a two state solution while the arabs did not? The true reason that there is no peace is because of the orthodox view of maintaining muslim arab homogeny in the region.
Now don't get me wrong i don't think zionism persay solves the jewish problem as many zionist jews tend to think it does, as well as the founder of zionism, Herzl, but i do recognize the same right i give to any other people whether pakistani or palestinian which is the right to self determination. A person who argues Israels creation in 1948 was wrong has to argue pakistans creation was wrong as well, in the same year, with the large population movements and ethnic cleansing that came about as an outcome.
I still did not infer from your argument how the New York Times is Zionist owned? Who owns it? An american Jewish person which you do not know his stance on Israel. Is that why it is Zionist owned?
You say you have a better idea of what the media "Should be in the US", why is that? The fact that most people get their media from one or two news outlets is no different than anywhere else in the world. Apparently, Israel is a country in which you think a more diverse picture of foreign policy is portrayed:
"All of the Israeli media aren't the same." "They treat both sides of the story with honesty" — Muntasir
Apparently you are a zionist as well–
"Not that I am saying Israel should be dissolved" — Muntasir
I have seen more than enough videos and i watched your Al jazeera video, though i'm not going to spend hours watching this stuff, i have better things to do. How many times can you see the same dead baby. It's no wonder with the continuous pictures of the dead (the same dead) that the arab and muslim public turns more violent. If in israel and the US they showed pictures of bodies from hamas suicide bombings in the 90's and through 2000 and 911 all day we would go insane as well.
As for Israelis saying "kill the arabs", I don't think it's a widespread phenomena and in any country you can find stupid nationalists. Chanting death to the US, Israel and the jews is more common in arab countries, Iran and pakistan than in western countries. Your attack about watching in delight is another one of your ad hominem attacks. As for rabbis that say it is holy to kill muslims please send me a reference. Nonetheless, i'm not arguing that there no stupid rabbis as i am not arguing there are no stupid imams or priests. Do you really want me to advocate for people that believe moses turned a rod into a snake and parted a sea. For people that believe in divine impregnation. For people that believe in a ruthless butcher that thought himself the messenger of god and is now the reason why in Iran the legal age of marriage for a women is nine years old?
Most of your arguments against the IDF are either hearsay or can be found in any other army on the planet. The main thing to look at is the moral code of the army, which, as a whole, in the IDF's case, i find to be quite impressive as was stated by many generals in britain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLfiMm86tA
The numbers are important for the very reason you spoke about, the small and densely populated area of gaza. White Phosphorous is legal under international law and was used in Fallujah by our american forces. It matters how israel used it, which i believe should be investigated. Yet you speak nothing to the 8,000 rockets which were fired specifically targeting civilians by the democratically elected government of Hamas. The Human rights groups talk about both sides, you choose to ignore the fact that they say the democratically elected Hamas's actions are a CLEAR case of War Crimes.
You may not be an arab, which i don't care whether you are or are not but i'm fairly certain from talking to you and looking at your previous comments, that you are an islamic nationalist and a supporter of political islam.
You don't know a thing about Orwell, his life and how it was affected by his fighting in the Spanish wars. The very reasons he wrote books like animal farm and 1984.
Where today, are there public hangings (Iran)? A revisionism of history (Iran-Holocaust)? Lack of freedom of press (Iran)? Sexual Repression(Iran)? and people chanting mindless slogans such as "Death to America" in front of their leaders? You are the one that has not a clue about the US and the diversity that exists here.
who does this John think he iz. He doesnt know that Khomeini after coming back to Iran issued a fatwa dat made it ilegal and harshly punishable to cause harm to Jews and Christians in Iran.
typical brainwashed US know it all.
"how many times….same dead baby"….coming from a guy who criticised iran for holding a holocaust revisionism conference. "8000 rockets fired" that killed 10 or 20 ppl in 8 years.
"idf has principles", "white phosphorus is legal"…..u need to see a psychiatrist.. like people in US don't say nuke iran….remember mccain and hilary.
I'm someone that is becoming disillusioned with people like you that claim to be supporters of liberal values "The Left" and support extremist regimes and groups. If you read Nick Cohen's book "Whats Left" you may start to grasp some of the problems that exist. I'm sick of people that don't have the moral levelheadedness to say that marriage of a 9 year old is wrong.
The premise you use which says that if Khomeini issues a fatwa making it illegal to harm jews and christians then no harm comes to them is factually wrong and a faulty generalization. First and foremost the discrimination of minorities is inherent in Sharia law. Second, the facts are that over 85% of the jewish population in Iran has left since the revolution. Third, the Iranian government sent a message to the jewish community by arresting and hanging there leader in 1979 for "corruption", "friendship with the enemies of God", "warring with God and his emissaries", and "economic imperialism". Please explain to me what offense is "Warring with god"? What kind of message do you think that sent to jews in Iran. Besides, Bahai's in Iran are continuously persecuted and nothing shames me more than the blind eye the left exhibits towards this community, as well as nontaliban Pakistanis in the Swat region and many other forgotten places around the globe.
In regards to the "same baby comment". I meant what i said though i probably should have been more sensitive in saying it. I have seen a news video of a man showing his two dead sons around 30 times. The first, second, third time you watch it is news. By the 30th time it is no more than hateful propaganda.
1Rocket is casus belli to go to war and the fallacious argument that any people should live with constant rocket attacks which target their children is ridiculous. With that said it is clear that the occupation needs to end in the west bank but any person that has read hamas's charter and hizbolla's charter can understand that it will not end with the 67 borders.
White Phosphorous is legal under international law, look it up, don't make stupid statements out of ignorance. It was used in fallujah by the US army as well as by Israel.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/po...
Though the use of WP is definitely something that should be looked over by the military.
The IDF does have a moral code that it's soldiers are required to adhere to. Thus there is all the fuss in the Israeli newspapers which you and muntasir take your sources from, like Haaretz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLfiMm86tA
People that say Nuke Iran and mean it in the US are morons, i have no objection to calling them that. I never heard mccain say nuke iran? Nor do i support mccain so it does not matter.
Nuke em' all is at times said as a joke to reference a more aggressive policy. It's not the most politically correct term but you have to understand american nuances.
even u probably lost count of how many of dose "facts" about iran and islam u made up.
"I have seen a news video of a man showing his two dead sons around 30 times. "
duh…the whole international media was blocked out of Gaza by Israel, remember??? not to mention israel's own reporter being continuously banned for da past couple of yrs. but wait lemme guess, u probably watched da arab channels or AJE but thought all palestinians/arabs look da same right?
And of course u'll say white phosphorus is not illegal even though the geneva convention says it is. Because america along with other military bullies never sign dose things. even though the US itself knows that for the pretense of being humane they've gotta say that "white phosphorus should not be used in civilian areas". gaza has over a million ppl in less than 150 sq miles. mix dat wid WP and IDF morals. den as muntasir said…do da math.
So you say American nuances have to be understood, while middle eastern nuances are at a totally different standard right? even wen dey r said in the face of situations ur stubborn mind cant begin to understand.
What facts did I make up, whoops I forgot the whole arab world and muslim world are strict adherents to the Geneva conventions. Why don't you go ahead and point out the facts that are made up about islam and we'll debate them. Al jazeera and Al arabiya were not blocked out and yes reporters were not allowed to go into a war zone, big shock. Especially when you have iranian reporters in israel covering the events.
Even Muntasir explicitly says he posts propaganda videos on the comment factory, Watch his video. I've seen those pics before.
Ofcourse, Hamas shares no responsibility in firing over 8,000 rockets into israel.
What amazes me about muntasir is that as a bangladeshi in 1971 200,000 to 3,000,000 were killed in the war of liberation. Bangladesh's whole academic community, which was mainly Hindu was murdered, leaving the country in the destitute it is in today. Numerous women were tortured, raped and killed during the war. Bangladeshi sources cite a figure of 200,000 women raped, giving birth to thousands of war babies. The Pakistan Army also kept numerous Bengali women as sex-slaves inside the Dhaka Cantonment
His eyes should be on what is currently going on in pakistan in the SWAT region. The rise of the taliban and extremest Muslims in pakistan, which could be perceived as a direct threat towards him and his country. What he ends up being worried about, because he is an islamic nationalist, is the israeli-palestinian conflict. No other conflicts bother him as much. Why? Irrationality is the disease of religion and i'm sorry to say you have been infected
Personally, I think that as far as morals and utility are concerned, Galloway should be banned from leaving his house. The world would be a better place without yet another blouted, ignorant, self-righteous asshole who talks shit about things he has no idea about… but in the name of freedom of speech I guess we'll have to put up with him…
Just out of interest Omri, is there anyone who disagrees with you who isn't ignorant and self-righteous, or is this just a matter of definition and we should all give up trying to argue with a mind of such greatness?
Well it's nothing to d with "disagreeing with me". Any educated westerner who supports suicide bombings on school buses, calls for genocide, public stoning of homosexuals, international Islamic Jihad, Holocaust denial, and "Elders of Zion" anti-Sematism is an outright idiot. These are the things that Hizballah and Hamas stand for, and as Mr. Galloway is an ardent supporter of both, he is an asshole…
The argument of "I support Hamas but I opposed suicide bombings and stoning women to death" doesnt work i'm sorry…
I'm tired of this. There's a difference between supporting an organization fighting off invaders than agreeing with their political program. Out of interest Omri… Would you have supported the Soviet Union when they beat the Nazis? I assume you would, so does that make you a supporter of Gulags and a police state? Of course not.
I actually agree with you about any "educated westerner" who think those thing. Shame you can't provide me with one. Galloway has never supported any of those things (aside from maybe tangentially suicide bombings). You need to read up on your logic mate.
Yeah I've heard Finkelstein make that dismal and feeble minded comparison between Hamas and the Soviets. There simply is no room for such a comparison – it is just as nonsensical as the line of thought that spawns it. If anything, if you want to use that example, Israel would be the Soviets.
The situation here is nothing like this example. Israel has no interest or intention of taking over the world and installing a supreme aryan race. Israel has no interest in attacking Gaza or Lebanon – your feeble conspiracy theories not withstanding. Hamas and Hezballah has no reason to attack Israel other than to cause its disintegration in the long run. As I said – they do not have any defensive faculties.
Galloway and yourself are both supporters of these psychos, and therefore supporters of everything I listed. Don't try to excuse your absurd and immoral thinking with absurd comparisons. If you support hamas, you give legitimacy to their ideology – there is no reason or excuse for that. If Israel is such a terrible threat, and a horde of blood thirsty Nazis – why are civilian casualties of Palestinians so incredibly low? Where are the millions of dead Palestinians?
And I didn't notice this earlier probably because of your other utterly nonsensical comments. But you gave a link to "aljazeera.com" which has nothing to do with the entire Al-Jazeera Network (English or Arabic). The magazine you cited is run by an independent company based in London.
This grave mistake once again unmasks the lack of understanding you have of such sources and issues, including the falsity of your claims of "being aware".
One more thing, De Paul was the ONLY university Finkelstein had to leave, and that too because of his views, and the campaign against him by Dershowitz. De Paul didn't have a problem with his academics. If you didn't know, Professors often choose to teach at a various number of universities. The writing "most recently De Paul" is again proof of your use of fallacious arguments plus use of "quick glance at a Wiki" info.
Al-Jazeera is the best news source in the world at the moment. It elicits such hysteria from people because it is not under complete ideological control and actually has an audience. Finkelstein was commended by his university and his students repeatedly, unfortunately he was the victim of a authoritarian campaign by a sick, weird individual called Alan Dershowitz, who is chief propagandist for the Israeli government, whatever they do.
At:Forthright :-
You are pretentious as you are absolutely ignorant. You don't know anything about the genocide my people faced. A mere glance at some Wikipedia page, and you start thinking you can lecture me about 1971 with your self-righteous sanctimonious tones.
The US government supported Pakistan at the time, and also blocked a UN resolution condemning Pakistan (they did the same thing when Indonesia destroyed East Timor). Henry Kissinger also made sure that the US withheld the recognition of Bangladesh as long as they could after the war. Maybe you hate Kissinger too, but screw you for thinking you can throw some bloody figures at me about 1971. Bangladeshis died liberating their nation and the West's mainstream media (e.g. TIME magazine) portrays the Indians as the heroes and saviors.
"The rise of the taliban and extremest Muslims in pakistan, which could be perceived as a direct threat towards him and his country."
What do you think I am? Some Southerner? Unlike you I did not face a culture of indoctrination and fear mongering from a government that uses the term "terrorism" to control its people.
You're a racist because Palestinian blood is cheap to you, and your visible hatred for Islam just goes to support that notion. Only a monster could make such comments about the footage of people suffering.
"Islamic nationalist"??- I am a Muslim, period. Meaning I believe the Quran in its entirety, and so am bound to follow the laws in it. Laws which don't specify a particular system of government. It however gives ethical and moral guidelines that are a sufficient basis for the formation of just systems of governance. Neither did the Prophet Muhammad specify anything regarding the topic or mention a caliphate.
The Palestinian cause isn't about religion to me. It's about HUMANITY. I realize that I was only born where I was and not in Gaza through luck, and I think about what I would want from the outside world if I was in their position.
I came to Islam through rationality and discovery of incontrovertible proofs regarding the religion's validity. Irrationality is a symptom of arrogant ignorance which you display in abundance. You keep coloring people and nations however you want. At the end of the day your stubborn ignorance will be your downfall.
Good on you Muntasir. I often can't be bothered to take on this incessant babble about how we all think Islamic fundamentalism is good, we love Bin Laden, I hate women, I hate gay people, we should all thank the US for spreading democracy…. But you took on this specific lie. Of course India had their own reasons for intervening in the massacre in Bangladesh, but they were a damn sight more humane than Kissinger and the US which basically supported this sick tyrant in power in Pakistan as he murdered thousands upon thousands of Bengalis.
History gets obscured and serviced for power — it's that version they are spouting. Keep up the good work, I appreciate you taking the time to correct the distortions. On religion: I am an atheist but I feel much closer to a Muslim socialist than I do an atheist libertarian, and I think the whole debate about religion is really helpful to the neocon narrative: it's no coincidence that the whole Atheist Movement really kicked off when we decided to bomb the shit out of Muslim people.
Thanks Matt. It does get tiring to counter the mountain of lies people are willing to spread about these issues. Most times I feel like it's not worth it because the subjects are multi -layered, and it takes a long time for the dots to connect themselves in people's minds. Specially for those who argue with a set of inexorable presumptions built up over years of exposure to biased media. But I guess we've got no alternative to shouting back, because those lies eventually get to other people who might not have been so predisposed to start out with.
You're right about the need for debate about religion. At least if people get talking there is slightly less fear/hatred/prejudice between them even if they end up disagreeing on most points.
"I came to Islam through rationality and discovery of incontrovertible proofs regarding the religion's validity."
Really? Or is it you want the option of marrying a 9 year old girl (you sick pedophile) like the great pedophile mohammed had done and is the reason why it is legal to marry 9 year olds in Iran. Sharia law is not a just system, nor any way to govern and you're an absolute blind fool for thinking it is. It is a direct source of inequality for women and non-Muslims in Muslim countries which incorporate Sharia law. Any non Muslim Nationalist would admit that.
What incontrovertible proofs are you talking about? You're about as dumb as a rock.
Indoctrined? Unlike you i don't bow in a Mosque, Church or Synagogue, i form my own opinions, which might not at all times be 100% correct, through learning and questioning. You unfortunately are not allowed to question the Koran, thus you point to your first defeat in the fight for rationality.
Downfall? You're intellectuals were murdered by Pakistanis not Americans. While Americas role in the conflict was despicable, point the blame first and foremost at the ones who did the killing. Entrenched in Islam your country will go nowhere, as do all countries where islam slowly becomes a factor. That goes for all religion, country partnership. I speak about bangladesh after discussing the issue with a bangladeshi friend of mine and doing reading on the subject. She told me her father saw thousands of dead as he fled the killing. So don't give me your bullshit, you lecture here on just about everything in a tone much more self righteous and sanctimonious than mine. As you lecture me about my country i can throw some issues that i think should concern you back at you.
The only monster here is you! You give not a care in the world when muslims kill muslims. Muslims have killed muslims on a few orders magnitude larger scale than what happened in gaza in the recent years. You could not care less. Work with these numbers -official UN News Service stated that an estimate over 400,000 people have been killed in Sudan. Arab countries hugged and kissed Sudan's leader recently at the arab league conference. You say not a word about the rapes in Sudan. You are the racist against Jews/Zionists which you put all your focus on.
You never answered me on how Finklestein can be jewish but non-religious?
As for Matt – "I feel much closer to a Muslim socialist than I do an atheist libertarian" – Well said, I'm glad we can see your true colors. I can think of nothing closer to Orwells depiction of a dystopia than a Socialist Muslim government which incorporates Sharia law in current global politics. Can you?
Sorry omri, You're barking up the wrong tree. Matt Kennard is a supporter of Muslim Socialism, whatever that is? Apparently in muslim socialism the proletarian class will get a just compensation for their work, while at the same time following the strict Islamic laws of a Supreme Imam and Sharia law.
If you ever want a lesson in the art of doublethink please read some of Matt kennards articles as well as his statements.
Here is another fine young chap who despite being anti-american and capitalism goes off to study in colombia, which resides in the pinnacle of the capitalistic establishment. Then flaunts his Ivy league education while at the same time criticizing every aspect of american internal and external policy. Maybe with his ivy league (Proletarian ya right) education Matt can inform us about the intricacies of Muslim Socialism. That is an article I am dying to read.
Well that's just a personal attack. I never said I was a supporter of Muslim Socialism, any more than Jewish Socialism or Christian Socialism. I just said that the current fascination with religion serves a propaganda purpose, and gave quite an uncontroversial personal anecdote that although I am an atheist when I'm talking to religious socialists or leftists I feel much closer to them intellectually than I do to atheists who are politically conservative.
Not every Muslim wants Sharia law BOB, so maybe Muslim Socialism would look more like the Christian Socialism of Hugo Chavez, or the Aymara Socialism of Evo Morales. I don't know, to say its impossible to have Muslim socialism without sharia law is insane. There were quite a lot of socialist movements in the Middle East until the US and their allies decided to support all the most reactionary Muslims to kill them off. Check out how Israel helped create Hamas.
And what does "anti-American" mean BOB? I am opposed to their governments policy of war and economic exploitation, but all states go in for that, it just so happens that right now the US is the most powerful state in the world so what they do has a massive impact.
Why don't you write an article on how all Muslims are just Bin Laden's in the disguise and that they want all homosexuals dead, want to kill all Jews, blah blah.
Lets just point out that when Muntasir said:
" I believe the Quran in its entirety, and so am bound to follow the laws in it. Laws which don't specify a particular system of government. It however gives ethical and moral guidelines that are a sufficient basis for the formation of just systems of governance."
The form of governance is called Sharia law, which not all muslims support and there are a number of different muslim sects, not all of them being openly oppressive. It just so happens that bangladesh has many midrashas funded by the Saudis. These midrashas promote one of the more vile and oppressive forms of Islam, wahabiism.
You replied
"Good on you Muntasir" and " I am an atheist but I feel much closer to a Muslim socialist than I do an atheist libertarian" as well as calling Forthright a liar, what lie did he state, and you talk about personal attacks? Since libertarians can also be socialists you compare Muslims and libertarians, meaning you feel closer to people that can be distinctly differentiated by islam in their attitudes towards civil liberties.
You, in your articles, fit a good description of what an anti-american acts like. First of all you lump all of the US's enemies together, so eva morales and chavez are in the same ideological boat as Iran and Syria, which is fundamentally wrong at its core. Then you attack, by making "tongue and cheek" arguments anyone you consider an ally of the US, by making fallacious arguments and calling on embargoes without a thought of what the outcome would be and whether or not your cause would strengthen.
While i agree with you that the US was the perpetrator of a number misdeeds, caused by an overzealous and corrupt government which depends to much on lobbies, in South America. You regularly feed on US misdeeds in the past to justify your contemporary arguments, which as i said earlier is fallacious. If you want to look at a country that did a number more misdeeds in it's colonialist past and today is tip toe with the US on almost all foreign issues look no further than your home country.
Once again pointing out the stupidity of an action such as Israel helping to create Hamas doesn't legitimize all of an organizations actions today.
Should of been let in but check George out at his best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foqBUBUrr7M&fe...
Im not George's biggest fan, but this is a ridiculous montage which completely takes his comments out of context. Id say this was probably him at his best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyyGoPerzWc&fe...
He's good in both of them, Shows he won't take any of the US's crap, I love his comments about homosexuals
You can misinterpret and make up whatever you want about Islam along with a million other people on the net. I wouldn't care as you are all incapable of actually harming the religion. The Quran encourages debate and rationality, but it would be stupid to engage in further dialogue with someone as prejudiced as you.
Again, you reassert the lie that I think Arab leaders are worth anything at all. Western leaders hug and shake hands with those same Arab leaders, as they all did with George Bush and Tony Blair (both of whom have committed greater sins than Al-Bashir). If you watched my video, I mentioned Darfur there. One last time, you're trying to cancel one negative by pointing out another. The West has reprimanded Sudan heavily, but Israel puts on the facade of being an innocent peaceful nation while they commit the most hideous atrocities in their own backyard for over half a century.
What is worse— murder committed by a known criminal, or a "model citizen" of the society (backed by those who claim to be freedom's champion) torturing and killing innocent people as a pastime?
Don't bother answering. I don't really care about the opinions and lies of a racist. The only reason I wasted my time debunking your lies was for the sake of anyone who might read this and is unaware about the issue. Goodbye, and may your ignorance not infect others.
Final reply to John Forthright:
All I could do was just laugh at your last comment. Even after you previously stating your disregard for the value of Palestinian life, I was slightly doubtful about whether readers would immediately understand that you're an imbecilic racist and bigot.
But you then labeled me and consequently the entire Muslim world as "sick pedophiles" on the grounds that we follow Islam and respect the Prophet Muhammad. YOU JUST ADMITTED OUT AND OUT THAT YOU ARE A RACIST.
And then you call me a racist just because you got pissed off that I called you one. There's nothing that you can point to prove otherwise. What‘s this rubbish you're trying to throw at me about hearing stories from a Bangladeshi. I bloody live in Bangladesh, where everyday I meet people (example: my father) who survived the war. And I did not claim America's actions in 1971 were at an equal magnitude with Pakistan's.
Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) consummated his marriage to Aisha after she had reached her first menstruation. The age for puberty varies from country to country, and is earlier at regions near the equator. Their marriage was a happy and healthy one, and Aisha lived very well. It was also a very exceptional case as the Prophet's other wives (most of whom were widows) were all between 17 and 50.
Context is key, it was a very different time & place where things like completion of formal schooling and college were obviously not a part of day to day life like they are today. Lifespan and reaching maturity was also in a different range. Islam does NOT allow marriages without consent of both parties, and DISALLOWS consummation before they are ready for sexual relations. Some "Muslims" choose to bend these and other laws according to their own agendas. Just like an entire population cannot be judged for the act of a few, the same goes for those cases.
To all those reading (except racists and bigots) who are thinking about those "incontrovertible proofs" I was talking about, here are three unique videos if you're interested.
1. Is the Quran God's word?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQxNaDBDDjo&fe...
(10 minute videos in 23 parts)
http://www.vuze.com/details/35Y5O7FGQTPVXHVUPYWPG...
(downloadable version)
2. Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) in Various Religious Scriptures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyfxQ-hDvu8
3. Quran and Modern Science – Conflict or Conciliation (start from 15th minute)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=226095429...
(The YouTube links are the only non-torrent links I could find)
THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO PROSELYTIZE, but it is to show you where I'm coming from. That my claims about my religion are not based on hot air. There is this assumption that has been spreading like a plague since 9/11 that because so many of the Muslims are people living in the poorest and technologically inferior nations, we don't have rationality and sagacity in our thinking.
These videos are just to demolish such misconceptions. A lot of us Muslims think in depth. We don't follow our religion simply because our forefathers did. We've had our religious cum existential crisis. And we don't judge a religion by those who claim to follow it, but we judge it by its scripture.
( To get anything at all out of the video you must set aside whatever prejudices and assumptions you might have had about the religion, or you might have about the speaker because of his dress up or origin)
Thank you,
I will have the final reply if you don't mind. As you may have noticed I am not a "big fan" of moral relativism which you invoke in explaining that "the age for puberty varies from country to country ". You do this when trying to give an explanation as to why the legal age of marriage in Iran is 9. A person that marries a girl at the age of 9 and consummates the marriage when a child has her first period is in my eyes a pedophile whether he be muslim, jewish, christian or hindu or any other creed or faith.
You make a mockery of common sense when you say "Islam does NOT allow marriages without consent of both parties". As if a 9 year old girl in Iran is old enough to give consent. The facts are that it is not some muslims that choose to "bend" the rules but a number of the governments that represent the muslim nations. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taliban-Afghanistan are just a few clear examples. I have in no way stated that all muslims believe what you stated above and you do not represent all muslims.
You have shown yourself to be a clear antisemite when you condemn all Israeli's for the actions of their government. You have not answered the one question I have asked you to answer which is: under your definition of a jew how does your guru Norman finklestein fit in? Only a tiny minority of jews are not "guilty" in your eyes and do not "control" the media or financial markets, these are jews that have the belief that Israel should not have been formed for the insane belief that the "messiah" has not arrived yet. Every time you say a word about israel you don't argue facts you argue humanity, monsters, atrocities, making it clear that ad homenim attacks is your style.
I surely was not you're trying to cancel one negative by pointing out another. I was pointing out crimes that are overwhelmingly disproportionate to what happened in gaza by the sheer magnitude of the lives lost and the rapes committed. Yet your focus is unambiguously unbalanced. The reason is that you are a muslim nationalist – any nationalist as dictated by Orwell tends to ignore atrocities committed by his own side, yet any move taken by Israel, a country which is seen in the region as an affront to Islam, will be judged on humiliation and defeat in your mind. Thus, I have no doubt you respect Hizbolla, and glorified their "victory" in 2006.
I highly recommend watching muntasirs video on Islam and science, he is clearly not trying to proselytize. There is no better way of spending an evening laughing than to hear this imam point out coincidences in the Koran to try and explain nuclear physics. The best one I thought was when he says that the Koran never said that an atom was indivisible thus proving the koran is uptodate with physics and had predicted the divisibility of atoms. You can find the same insanity in the south here in the US with creationists. Also, it is obvious from muntasir the reason muslims have led a revolution in recent years in the different fields of science was because of the Koran. Thank you for pointing this out! If anyone wonders why in fact there is a large majority of jewish nobel prize winners it is for the reason that most jews are secular and certainly the greatest of them Einstein, Frued, Shpinoza and kafka to name a few did not believe the lunacy of the jewish religion.
I would recommend readers listen to Christopher Hitchens explain how the Koran keeps its hold on people by condemning anyone who tries to translate the Koran to death. You can hear this Imam speak in arabic which his listeners obviously do not understand, all his arguments are fallacious, not one has an ounce of logic to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTl-j2RFrh0&fe...
A book worth reading:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Ever...
Fallacious arguments
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/argume...
Thank you
HaHaHa,
The science video is one of the craziest videos i've ever seen. It makes me wonder how you differentiate yourself from the religious south in the US that you ridiculed in your recent comments. Both of you are Wack Jobs.
Do you know arabic at all or are you just repeating what people tell you? The joke and the punch line is that you call other people indoctrinated. Get a life!
Goerge in true form, deceiving the zionist shitholes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxcivJRg8g&fe...
George Galloway at his best once again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v8BNaWKuMM
I'm british and i don't want george galloway here,canada can have him and keep him,he's a slimy oozing self seeking totalitarian marxist who has helped to create the giant gulag now called great britain,we have loads like him to spare,so you can have him "please"!