A letter to Israeli dissident, Enbal Gross
Laurence Seeff writes a letter to fellow-Israeli Enbal Gross concerning her article for The Comment Factory.
By Laurence Seeff on Sunday, January 18th, 2009 - 2,060 words.
Dear Enbal Gross,
I am sorry that I did not pick up this thread closer to the time it was published and sincerely hope that my post is posted as a response to your “New Genocide” claims.
You wrote: “I grew up in Israel and I can tell you that since day one all you learn and understand is that there is an enemy that wants to take your country and kill you”.
This is a personal perception and not fact-based at all. So be it, for now, despite the fact that Israel is a pluralistic, democratic society having been led by both left and right-wing governments throughout her 60 years. You might need to back your “understanding” with factual material.
You wrote: “You will learn in an Israeli history class that we were always outnumbered…”.
If you are referring to the size of Israel’s population, amongst the surrounding Arab nations’ population (I doubt you are) then yes you learned and understood well but led your readers astray by insinuating that some plot teaches untruths. If you are referring to the Arab-Israel wars then all your history teachers misinformed you. You insinuate that being outnumbered is not true, but Israel was outnumbered as follows:
(1) 1948 War of Independence: Note the table of force comparison on the right. Please note that no less than 7 Arab countries simultaneously attacked Israel.
(2) 1956 Suez War: Note the table of force comparison on the right.
(3) 1967 War: Do I still have to remind you to learn the table on the right?
(4) 1973 War: Please note that Israel was attacked by three Arab nations on her holiest day
Do you and your readers need more?
***
You wrote: “You learn…that all of the battles were in the sanctity of the Holy Land. ”
Sanctity and holiness are taught in religious sectors of the population which are approximately 25 percent of the population. You lead your readers astray, again.
You wrote: “You will learn that the Jewish people have suffered throughout history”.
I don’t know from which direction to proceed on this one. Perhaps a good start is the systematic genocide of six million not too long ago. I will mention words like pogroms and go back all the way to Crusades. You can do the rest by looking up a little Jewish history — you used the word “Jewish” history. Oh, look up anti-Semitism against Jews.
You wrote : “You will have no choice but to believe that the only way is to fight for your life, no matter what”.
“No choice”. Does this mean its punishable if you don’t? The only locations I know of in which this type of “offense” is punishable are in Sha’riah states.
You wrote: “I started to investigate and learn the facts, and to watch alternative media channels, which were not biased”.
Could you please provide these sources to your readers, myself included. If you are referring to the BBC, Reuters reports, Sky, The Guardian etc. I suggest you visit this website.
You wrote: “Then I learned about the Sabra and Shatila massacre.”
You forgot to mention that the perpetrators of the massacre were Lebanese and thus lead your readers astray.
You wrote: “And from here I finally saw the truth. I started to participate in the weekly demonstrations of Bil’in…And I saw the real ugly face of occupation.”
You forgot to mention that you are protesting the building of a FENCE (only 2 percent of it is wall) to keep out suicide bombers that TARGET civilians. That includes women, children, tourists and the elderly.
You wrote: “I, even as an Israeli, got attacked from “my” soldiers with tear gas grenades along with (illegal) rubber-coated steel bullets and stun grenades, all in a non-violent demonstration”.
You forgot to mention that you were disobeying orders given to you whilst breaking the law. Could you please furnish the sources for your “illegal” claim, too.
You wrote: “I saw a helpless child suffocated by a tear gas grenade which landed in his living room. I saw a young man been arrested just for calling out protest songs. I saw the madness in the soldiers eyes as they started to chase us into the village”.
You forgot to see the madness in suicide bombers eyes. You also forgot to see the dozen of mutilated bodies of Israeli civilians in charred busses, blown up by suicide bombers. Do you need more? There are countless sites and videos of Hamas and Palestinian indoctrination, and calls to annihilate the Jews – look it up yourself.
You wrote: “…no one will teach you about the fact that in Israel in 2009 there are roads that Palestinians aren’t allowed on even though it’s the direct road to their village. Or that the West Bank and every other Palestinian territory is surrounded with walls and every few meters there is a watch-tower with Israeli soldiers”.
You forgot to mention that those roads had been used to transport suicide bombers and other terrorists militants. You lead your readers astray by referring to a wall – only 2 percent is a wall and not fence. You forgot to mention that in areas that there are walls, Israeli civilians were shot, killed and maimed due to the fact the fence is see-through.
You wrote: “No one will teach you that. You will have to learn it yourself, or forever be in the dark”.
Of course you’d have remained in the dark by “forgetting” to check your facts and look up the reasons for all you have complained about.
You wrote: “I can assure you that there is no other solution other than ending the occupation of Palestine — now”.
I agree; can you believe that?
You wrote: “People need to break the bloody circle by seeing that they’ve been brainwashed their whole life to believe that “war is the only way they know”, and that the Islam calls them to kill all Jews – it is just false”.
Oh boy! I think that you have remained in some chosen dark place. Take a look at Sayyed Qutb and Hassan al-Banna, and even Mawdoodi, and other fellows like them, all of whom wrote long before any of the events in question and who explained why they hate the West and Jews. For example, this is from the writings of Qutb:
Any place where the Islamic Shari’ah is not enforced and where Islam is not dominant becomes the Home of Hostility (Dar-ul-Harb) … A Muslim will remain prepared to fight against it, whether it be his birthplace or a place where his relatives reside or where his property or any other material interest are located. The homeland of the Muslim, in which he lives and [upon] which he depends, is not a piece of land; the nationality of the Muslim, by which he is identified, is not the nationality determined by a government … striving is purely for the sake of God, for the success of His religion and His law [Milestones, pp 124-5]
And:
…explaining the purpose of man and his historical role in philosophical terms … is one of the tricks played by world Jewry, whose purpose is to eliminate all limitations, especially the limitations imposed by faith and religion, so that Jews may penetrate into body politics of the whole world and then may be free to perpetuate their evil designs. At the top of the list of these activities is usury, the aim of which is that all the wealth of mankind end up in the hands of Jewish financial institutions which run on interest. [Milestones, p.110-111]
At the beginning the enemies of the Muslim community did not fight openly with arms but tried to fight the community in its belief through intrigue, spreading ambiguities, creating suspicions. They do likewise today. They have plotted and they go on plotting against this nation. Hundreds and thousands have infiltrated the Muslim world, and they still do in the guise of Orientalists. The pupils of the latter fill today the positions of the intellectual life of the countries whose people call themselves Muslim. Their aim is clearly shown by the Protocols [of the Elders of Zion]. The Jews are behind materialism, animal sexuality, the destruction of the family and the dissolution of society. Principal among them are Marx, Freud, Durkheim and the Jew Jean-Paul Sartre.
…
The Jews have confronted Islam with enmity from the moment the Islamic state was established in Mediana… the Muslim community continues to suffer the same Jewish machinations and double-dealing which discomfited the early Muslims… This is a war which has not been extinguished…for close on fourteen centuries its blaze has raged in all the corners of the earth and continues to this moment.
(Sayyid Qutb, “Ma’rakatuna ma’a al-Yahud,” (Our Battle Against the Jews) [essay] 1951. Published in book of the same name [Ma'rakatuna ma'a al-Yahud], Jedda, Saudi Arabia, 1970)
***
You wrote: “There are Muslims who kill in the name of Islam, but they are abusing the faith, like Yigal Amir did when he murdered Yitzhak Rabin – apparently in the name of God. And like Baruch Goldstein did when he murdered 29 Muslims, also “in the name of God”. So does this mean Jews kill in the name of God? Of course not. These people are not the majority, there is a fanatical minority on both sides”.
You compare one Yigal Amir and Goldstein to many muslims. Yigal Amir did not mange to organize mass rallies, nor was he sent by any group. The comparison is outrageous. Not only did you NOT see Israelis distributing sweets after this horrific event, it was investigated like none other, rebuked and certainly does not reflect any group or Israeli policy. If you really want to go down this road, you will find it bloodied with Israeli blood for countless “martyrs and Hamas heroes”. Shame on you for drawing such a comparison. Yes, the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, but why is it that the vast majority of terrorists are Muslim?
You wrote: “Whether people will admit to the truth or not, the Israeli government is committing war crimes in Gaza. And even though the Israeli Supreme Court has ordered to allow access for international journalists in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli government continues to deny journalists entry to Gaza. Don’t you ask yourself why? If Israel is really fighting only the terrorists, then what is there to hide?
Your conclusion of not allowing journalists into Gaza is a personal gut feeling and not true information. This leads your readers astray and into the dark. The reason is to protect the journalists and Israeli soldiers. Journalists unfortunately have abused there role and caused Israeli deaths. Let’s leave the bias out of it for now. Two Iranian journalists have been sentenced for breaking censorship laws which caused the deaths of some soldiers. You need, a source for this claim – let me know.
You wrote: “Young Israeli children are signing on bombs before the IDF use them to bombing Gaza. It is such an appalling display of contempt for human life. Is this how we want our children to be? Cold-blooded murderers?”
Please confirm this by providing a link. Should you be able to, I shall furnish you with some links.
You wrote: “As a granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, I grew up with the horror stories about what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust — the real stories. So how could it be justified to do it to another nation? We have got to put a stop to it. It’s a whole new modern genocide. Are you willing to be part of it? Are you willing to just sit there with crossed hands and do nothing? Well I can’t — my conscience doesn’t allow me to do that.”
So the Holocaust was genocide – the systematic killing of a racial or cultural group. Jews were gassed for being Jews, right? The mighty Israeli army could systematically destroy all of Gaza and a few neighboring countries, within the hour. Why does it not? Why are leaflets dropped to warn civilians of impending bombardments? Why are there Palestinians in Israeli hospitals? Why did Israel wait through eight years of rocket fire to implement this genocidal plan? Shame on you for using your Holocaust wounds to falsely accuse Israel of doing the same.
You have acquired some fans who have made you their heroine, as the comments show. It is quite easy to be king of the mice but rather difficult to be king of the lions. Enjoy your reign.
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Laurence Seeff
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A letter to Israeli dissident, Enbal Gross
Laurence Seeff writes a letter to fellow-Israeli Enbal Gross concerning her article for The Comment Factory. …
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Nice to see another view here.
I think Enbal's view, along with all the "extreme left" are incredibly naive and misinformed – and that is evident in pretty much everything she says. Anyone who believes that the BBC is less biased than Israeli media is a fool to think so. I too want to see the end of the occupation – but only when circumstances allow for it. And it won't bring an end to anything – it will just be another step in this war – a step which will take Israel to the higher moral ground it should never have left (with thanks to former construction minister Ariel Sharon, and former terrorists Begin and Shamir).
I would have the greatest respect for Enbal if she was able to come to me with a detailed plan for a solution and say "if we do A, B , C -XYZ we can solve this thing with no violence, while considering all the factors of this complex reality". If she convinced me of that I would go "you have my vote, please run for prime minister". But instead she offers me a thoroughly ignorant view of the history, the reality, and both Israeli and Palestinians societies – with simplistic labels of "bad guy" "good guy", and tells me that the magical solution is "to end the occupation", while at the same time denying that that is exactly what Israel has negotiated about since 1991, and denying that that is exactly what Israel did in Gaza. She somehow thinks that I like war and violence more than she does, or that she is more sensitive to the suffering of others, or that I am "brainwashed" and she isn't. Well I'm not convinced.
Good to see a relatively sane view presented here finally.
BBBYYY the waaay… about the journalists – Israel did allow small numbers of independent journalists domestic and foreign into Gaza embedded with the army – in this way they acted in exactly the same way as the US and the UK have done. One CNN guy made it into Gaza, and local Palestinian journalists sent reports to all the main networks – if intl journalists wanted to get in through Egypt I'm sure they could have found a tunnel to go through (like Zimbabwe). No doubt some of them were too unsure of their saftey and prefered to present Israel as a type of Zimbabwe at the start of every report (without saying of course that Israel was operating in exactly the same way as the UK and US). Maybe journalists should have been allowed in – it certainly would have helped Israel's image, even if a few well known journalists would have been killed, but then again I don't know the security considerations. Either way, the assumption that war crimes were committed BECAUSE "no journalists were allowed in" doesn't make any sense.
I can't be bothered to go through this article and post the falsehoods. Don't doubt there are many. And all of Enbal's assertions are backed up, by the way.
nice effort there bud!
I especially agree with he last paragraph….and the supporting arguments are put in well…good job.
most people especially out here in the wild west who claim to be smart….in truth have no fucking clue of whats really going on in the middle east….yet they advertise their opinion so restlessly…if one is to criticize Israel at least set foot on an Israeli soil once or twice..meet some people, some will be bitches..some will be good….see what Israel is about…meet some soldiers…meet some people who are on the right and left diplomatic scale..and then say a proper, researched opinion…otherwise its just bullshit.
More over,,,majority of the Israeli peace activists I have met, are truly, deeply insecure and have diabetes and mental instability,,,,im only saying this beacuse its really interesting how this description fits so many of them…lol.
I'm interested in the link to honestreporting.com. It seems to be presented as a rebuttal to anything published by "BBC, Reuters reports, Sky, The Guardian etc".
I followed the link. I don't know much about the organisation, but based on its headline articles it seems a bit difficult to accept that, without any further analysis, it provides a complete rebuttal to anything.
For example, at http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/…it accuses the BBC of media war crimes because it published an article written in part by a staff writer who was also a resident of Gaza. Since, at the time, foreign journalists were barred from entering Gaza (as the article says) this doesn't seem that extraordinary. In any event, the BBC article in question doesn't actually offer a concluded view on anything, it is expressly just a compilation of first hand reports. in the fourth paragraph of the article it is said that those reports are "not possible to verify. It seems like hyperbole to call this a "media war crime". How much more qualification was needed in the article to make it fair? Or even just guilty only of bias?
Nonetheless, the question of media bias in reporting is an interesting one. There are also groups who claim the mainstream media is biased against Palestinians (http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/index.asp).I'd like to see more on it.
Come on Matt!
If you "can't be bothered to got through this article and post the falsehoods", you shouldn't be bothered to claim that here are many either.
Take it slow man, one at a time, okay?
I'll promise to type slowly for you.
Laurence
OK:
"This is a personal perception and not fact-based at all. So be it, for now, despite the fact that Israel is a pluralistic, democratic society having been led by both left and right-wing governments throughout her 60 years. You might need to back your “understanding” with factual material."
Of course, it's personal perception. It's a comment piece about Enbal's feeling growing up.
Israel democratic? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stor…
"(1) 1948 War of Independence: Note the table of force comparison on the right. Please note that no less than 7 Arab countries simultaneously attacked Israel.
(2) 1956 Suez War: Note the table of force comparison on the right.
(3) 1967 War: Do I still have to remind you to learn the table on the right?
(4) 1973 War: Please note that Israel was attacked by three Arab nations on her holiest day"
What Enbal was talking about was how you are constantly taught you are outnumbered and everyone wants to kill, which is funny when you are the 4th biggest military on the planet, the only state in the Middle East with nuclear weapons, and have the support of the worlds only superpower.
Also, Suez War was fought alonside US and Britain, you weren't outnumbered.
“No choice”. Does this mean its punishable if you don’t? The only locations I know of in which this type of “offense” is punishable are in Sha’riah states."
What are you talking about?
"Oh boy! I think that you have remained in some chosen dark place. Take a look at Sayyed Qutb and Hassan al-Banna, and even Mawdoodi, and other fellows like them, all of whom wrote long before any of the events in question and who explained why they hate the West and Jews. For example, this is from the writings of Qutb:"
Look at what Enbal said: “People need to break the bloody circle by seeing that they’ve been brainwashed their whole life to believe that “war is the only way they know”, and that the Islam calls them to kill all Jews – it is just false”.
You are saying because some thinkers are Islamic, then all Islamic people are Jew-haters. Are you mad?
"You compare one Yigal Amir and Goldstein to many muslims. Yigal Amir did not mange to organize mass rallies, nor was he sent by any group. The comparison is outrageous. Not only did you NOT see Israelis distributing sweets after this horrific event, it was investigated like none other, rebuked and certainly does not reflect any group or Israeli policy. If you really want to go down this road, you will find it bloodied with Israeli blood for countless “martyrs and Hamas heroes”. Shame on you for drawing such a comparison. Yes, the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, but why is it that the vast majority of terrorists are Muslim?"
What about the attack on Gaza, is that going to be investigated by Israel? What about Sabra and Shatila….
I honestly can't be bothered to go through more. I've learnt it's a futile exercize to argue with nationalists, because they can't see rationally and just vomit up propaganda all the time.
Enbal is a breath of fresh air, she's escaped the ideological control of her society and is living a noble life because of it. …
Matt,
You are full of it. I just saw this comment. If you can't be bother to point them all out, point a few out. With two sentences your arrogance attempts two paint a whole article as false and assert that another is true without pointing out one fallacious statement.
Truly pathetic, wouldn't expect less from you though, after seeing some of your comments. The muslim socialist one will forever be etched in my head. Did you have the time to see Muntasir's advocating Islam and Science. Truly great. Check it out. His arguments fit your style it could be said about this Imam.
" I can't be bothered to go through an article criticizing this lecture and post the falsehoods. Don't doubt there are many. And all of Imams assertions are backed up, by the way."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=226095429…
dear Laurence . i'm sorry, i just saw your article.(btw it was posted one day after my birthday)___ell, let me start…but i'll go short:
you wrote: "Your conclusion of not allowing journalists into Gaza is a personal gut feeling and not true information"
well- it was all over the news, i hope you read hebrew, if not,please use goggle : http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/0/1408446
and after reading about young Israeli children that signing on bombs before the IDF use them to bombing Gaza. you wrote:"Please confirm this by providing a link. Should you be able to, I shall furnish you with some links"
here's the link:
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of…
this is for me- the most painfull pictures, children are pure minded, why should someone teach them something like that??? why???
as for illegal rubber-coated steel bullets , as well as M16 rifles- Geneva Convention banned the use of them. My commander even taught us this boot camp…
link:
http://www.redcross.org.uk/standard.asp?id=67000
and it goes on and on…
anyway, thank you for taking the time to write such a serious comment a I really appreciate the effort and always respects cultural discussion.
Great information I have Tweeted this, I will keep a eye on your other posts. Ohh what do you all think about the about the israel attack?
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